16 I want to invite Mr. Jim Thomas. 17 Kristy, am I okay on this? Yes. 18 Mr. Jim Thomas is to come, and then we 19 will hear from you and pay complete attention to 20 you, and then we'll take a break after that. 21 MR. JIM THOMAS: Good morning. My name 22 is James Thomas. I want to thank the advisory 23 committee for holding this meeting in Spokane. 24 I've been involved in Hanford issues 25 since 1984. On behalf of the Hanford Education NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Action League, HEAL, I filed nearly 150 Freedom of 2 Information Act requests that resulted in over 3 100,000 pages of documents being made publicly 4 available. I've conducted research on this and 5 additional material relating to Hanford historical 6 operations. 7 I'm presenting this personal testimony 8 as an individual citizen. In the interest of time, 9 I would like the rest of my written testimony to be 10 entered into the record and I'd like to address my 11 oral comments to some of the ethical considerations 12 with regard to Green Run intentional releases in 13 general and other releases from Hanford. 14 I think at the base of it is there was a 15 basic mistrust of the American people because of the 16 secrecy. The government did not trust its own 17 citizens, on whom it was supposedly operating on 18 behalf of, with the information that was classified 19 "Secret" and in some respects still is classified 20 "Secret" today. Because I think the basic fabric of 21 our country and our government is based on trust, I 22 think this is an ethical dimension where you could 23 argue that Green Run should not have been conducted 24 the way it was conducted. 25 Beyond that, I think it's at this point, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 at least from the information that is available to 2 the public, very difficult, if not impossible, to go 3 ahead with any kind of ethical analysis because 4 there's not enough information, especially as to the 5 decisionmaking process, what kinds of things were in 6 their minds and how Hanford officials, Air Force 7 officials and intelligence officials judged the 8 necessity to go ahead with Green Run, how they 9 designed it and why they didn't inform people. 10 In addition to that, there's not any -- 11 really any information about the other releases from 12 Hanford, especially the large releases in 1945. 13 Half of those releases happened after Japan 14 surrendered, so after, supposedly, to we were in a 15 state of war. I think that presents ethical 16 dimensions to it, that in looking at it are not that 17 much different from Hanford. 18 The intent was mainly for plutonium, as 19 opposed to Green Run which was mainly a release of 20 radiation into the environment; but they knew, 21 incumbent upon the production of plutonium at 22 Hanford in 1945, there were going to be large 23 releases of ions and other radioactive materials 24 into the environment. 25 Also in 1951, when they had a period of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 silver reactor filter failures, they knew they were 2 releasing large amounts of radiation into the air at 3 a time when it was the height of the growing season 4 in 1951, contributing to large exposures. 5 But, again, we don't have the kinds of 6 documents relating to the decisionmaking process 7 that the government used to continue those 8 operations and what their assessment was. And I 9 think that the committee needs to put pressure on 10 the government, especially the intelligence 11 divisions and the legal offices of the Department of 12 Energy and other agencies, to kick loose those 13 documents on the decisionmaking processes. 14 And I'd be open to any questions. 15 MR. ROYAL: As you indicated, I think, 16 trust certainly is a key issue, and the fact that 17 it's been difficult to understand what the 18 decisionmaking process was like back in the late 19 1940's makes it -- our job a very difficult one. 20 You made it sound like the documents 21 exist, but that the problem is that they need to be 22 declassified. How certain are you that the -- that 23 a full enough set of documents exist so that we 24 could make these judgments if we could only get them 25 declassified, as opposed to the fact that they just NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 didn't exist any longer? 2 MR. JIM THOMAS: I don't know if there's 3 a full enough set that would allow a full ethical 4 analysis. However, I do know that there are 5 additional materials, at least relating to Green 6 Run, that might be helpful in determining this. 7 There's, of course, the Green Run document. Some 8 sections of that are still classified. 9 Several years ago -- 10 MR. ROYAL: Could I interrupt you just a 11 minute? 12 MR. JIM THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. ROYAL: Have you seen that document 14 and do you know -- What I understand is that we 15 have a copy of the document where there are certain 16 portions of the document that are blacked out. 17 MR. JIM THOMAS: Yes. 18 MR. ROYAL: Have you seen that, that 19 document? 20 MR. JIM THOMAS: Yes, the blacked-out 21 section. Yeah, the thing with the blacked-out 22 section. 23 MR. ROYAL: And it's about one or two 24 pages in total maybe of a 30 or 40-page document? 25 MR. JIM THOMAS: Yeah. I calculated NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 it's about a page and a half of information if you 2 strung it together. 3 MR. ROYAL: And does it strike you, from 4 reading between the lines or reading where the 5 blacked-out spaces are, that the information that is 6 blacked out might be related to these decisionmaking 7 processes as opposed to related to weapons designs 8 and those sorts of things? 9 MR. JIM THOMAS: Yes, it would be very 10 much to the decisionmaking about who authorized it 11 and why. There's a letter from Mike Lawrence, who 12 in 1986 was the manager of the Department of Energy 13 at Hanford. In a letter to Congress transmitting 14 some documents, one of them being the Green Run 15 document, and reading that in the context of reading 16 the Green Run report, it becomes very clear that 17 those sections that are still classified do relate 18 to who authorized it and why. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, thank you. 20 MR. JIM THOMAS: Can I have a -- 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Sure. 22 MR. JIM THOMAS: As I was going to say 23 before, I happened to be, several years ago, a 24 freelance researcher doing some work for some 25 attorneys filing suit against Hanford; and during NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 part of that, there was a teleconference call with 2 lawyers from the Department of Justice and the 3 Department of Energy, and during that conversation 4 it was very clear that there were more documents, 5 other than just the Green Run document, that were 6 available about Green Run. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I'll ask for 8 questions. 9 MS. LEDERER: If, for some reason, it's 10 not possible to reconstruct the governmental 11 decisionmaking process for intentional releases, for 12 instance, like Green Run, will it be possible, in 13 your opinion, to restore trust in the decisionmaking 14 of the federal government? 15 MR. JIM THOMAS: I think that if there's 16 a clear admission on the part of government that, 17 aside from what can be reconstructed historically, 18 that there's an admission now that in hindsight, at 19 least, that what the government did was wrong and 20 that the government has done and is able to 21 demonstrate that it has done everything in its 22 capacity currently to make public all the 23 information about Green Run and the other 24 intentional releases, then I think that will have a 25 large measure in helping to restore public trust and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 also to say, you know, "We're wrong and we're 2 sorry." An apology would go a long way. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Steve? 4 MR. KLAIDMAN: We have someone in the 5 room who has read the Green Run document in the full 6 version and volunteered earlier to say a few words 7 about that during his earlier presentation and which 8 he has written his report on, which I have here. 9 I'm wondering, if we have a moment, if Al Conklin 10 could come up again for just a couple minutes and 11 comment on, as far as you're able, on the input. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Welcome back, 13 Mr. Conklin. 14 MR. AL CONKLIN: Thank you. I didn't 15 think I had time to talk about two subjects earlier 16 so I kind of gave Steve my earlier written report 17 that I'd done on the Green Run. 18 One of the advantages we have in the 19 state of Washington is that I still am able to 20 maintain a Q clearance. I used to be a former 21 employee on the Hanford reservation and I'm able to 22 use that clearance to be able to go and verify 23 information that the Department of Energy reports to 24 us if at any time we doubt that material. 25 I've had several occasions to be able to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 take advantage of that, and one of those advantages 2 was to address this very issue with the classified 3 version of the Green Run and to determine -- I had 4 the assignment to determine if any of the deletions 5 involved any public health issues involving the 6 citizens of the state of Washington. 7 I've included my internal memo that I 8 wrote as a result of that review, Steve has that, 9 and the conclusion that I have is that there were 10 no -- none of the deletions involved public health 11 issues, but rather they did involve some of the 12 reasons why the study was done and who did them, and 13 those issues are still classified. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So to make sure that 15 I completely understand, the issues that are 16 classified and which you cannot share, I understand -- 17 MR. AL CONKLIN: Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- though they do -- 19 they do in fact, though, shed some information on 20 what was the thinking of the people that were doing 21 the study. 22 MR. AL CONKLIN: That's correct. I 23 wrote this in '89. I'm not as young as I used to be 24 so my memory's not as good as it used to be. As I 25 wrote back then, "The segments deleted from the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 classified version related to specific information 2 on why and how the experiment was conducted and who 3 was involved in the experiment. 4 "The declassification of these deletions 5 would not add information to the dose reconstruction 6 project which is still ongoing," and it's still 7 ongoing, "or provide any other information relevant 8 to the health of the public in the Pacific 9 Northwest." 10 There are many pages that are blank that 11 we thought were deletions. In fact, in the 12 classified version, those pages are blank. I think 13 Jim is probably right, the total number of 14 deletions, if consecutively reported, are probably 15 about a page and a half to two pages. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: The bottom line then 17 is, what I think you're saying -- and I don't know 18 if I'll just get it right straight on -- that given 19 the mandate of our committee, which is different 20 from the mandate that you had when you went in, 21 given the mandate of our work, it would be of some 22 use, we don't know how much, but it would be of some 23 use for us if we in fact were able to find out -- to 24 be able to see those blacked-out portions -- 25 MR. AL CONKLIN: Yes, sir. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- 'cause there's 2 some relevance to the work we are doing. 3 MR. AL CONKLIN: I believe it would be 4 of some use to you, yes. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 6 MR. THOMAS: Can I follow up? 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 MR. THOMAS: As best you're able to 9 judge, and I realize this is not your area of 10 expertise, do you see any compelling national 11 security reasons for why these one-and-a-half pages 12 of blacked-out material should remain? 13 MR. AL CONKLIN: In my opinion, no. 14 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you all. Thank 16 you. That was very, very useful. We appreciate it. 17 Let me do a logistics check. Kristin, 18 stay with me on this. I know that I'm making you 19 unhappy because I've slipped time-wise. To those 20 that are in cue, we will be able to get to you and 21 you'll get your fair share, I absolutely promise 22 you. But so that we can listen to you with a brain 23 that's engaged, we're going to take the full 24 10-minute break and we're going to resume at ten 25 after the hour; so at exactly 11:10 we will be right NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 and ready to come back and Kristin will work out the 2 schedule as we go along. We'll make out. 3 (Recess taken from 11:00 to 11:10.) 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Thank you. 5 We're going to resume. I think our little blue sign 6 is working pretty well and we're getting -- folks 7 are sticking pretty well to the time limits and 8 we're not too far behind. 9 Our Group Two, let me just read the 10 names of the people so that they can all be 11 prepared. We have first Trisha -- 12 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Pritikin. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Pritikin. 14 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Just like the 15 diet. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mr. Frederick William 17 Larson, then Mrs. Brenda Weaver, then Mr. Tom Bailie, 18 Mr. Lynn Grover and Mrs. Michelle Grover, and then 19 Mr. Geoffrey Sea. That's what I have as the next 20 group of people. 21 Well, then -- And, again, I really 22 appreciate everybody sticking pretty much to the 23 timelines, and we're learning a great deal. This 24 has already been just absolutely worth to it to be 25 here with you. Let's start with Mrs. Trisha Pritikin. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Yes. My name is 2 Trisha Pritikin. I'm an attorney, a registered 3 occupational therapist and a health-damaged 4 Downwinder of the Hanford facility. 5 I was born in the early 1950's in 6 Richland, Washington, and resided there for the 7 first ten years of my life. In 1988 I was diagnosed 8 with severe hypothyroidism, I suffered from chronic 9 fatigue syndrome and a number of other health 10 problems I feel are related to radiation exposure 11 from Hanford. 12 I currently serve as a co-chairperson of 13 the Resource Center Advisory Board of the Hanford 14 Health Information Network, I reside in Berkeley, 15 California, and I'm here to testify as a follow-up 16 and support to my previous testimony given October 12 17 in San Francisco before the full committee. 18 Due to time limitations, my testimony 19 will take the form of four specific points with 20 supporting discussion. I testified pertaining to 21 human radiation experiments through intentional 22 environmental releases at Hanford. Certain 23 environmental releases of radiation from Hanford 24 meet the definition of "human radiation experiment" 25 contained in this committee's charter. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 I'd like to review the elements of that 2 definition. Part (a), "Intentional environmental 3 release of radiation;" Part (b), "Designed to test 4 human health effects of ionizing radiation;" or, 5 (c), "Designed to test the extent of human exposure 6 to ionizing radiation." 7 Part (a), pertaining to the intentional 8 nature of these releases, Jim Thomas has just 9 eloquently testified in regard to some of the 10 emissions which we consider meet your definition of 11 "intentional release." The blacked-out sections of 12 the Green Run document which you were discussing 13 need to be reviewed by this committee for evidence 14 of intent. 15 There exists no question in my mind that 16 Hanford radiation emissions were deliberate releases 17 of radionuclides into the environment. The burden 18 of proof should not be upon those whose health has 19 been damaged to show that these releases were 20 intentional, but rather upon defense contractors and 21 Hanford officials at the decisionmaking levels to 22 show that this routine, chronic irradiation of the 23 unsuspecting populace was purely accidental. 24 I've also submitted to you a list of a 25 number of emissions, such as the time in, I believe NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 it was, 1951 when the filters broke down and 2 radioactive iodine 131 was emitted into the 3 environment, the release of a large amount of 4 radioactive iodine after Japan surrendered in 1945. 5 You have that list already. 6 Part 2 of your definition says that 7 these emissions would meet your criteria for 'human 8 radiation experiment' "if they are designed to test 9 the human health effects of ionizing radiation or 10 test the extent of exposure." At my last testimony, 11 Duncan Thomas asked whether there was any collection 12 of data following these emissions. 13 We now have a list of people who have 14 already spoken to the Tri City Herald pertaining to 15 whole body count monitoring. We also have a number 16 of people who went through throat palpations as 17 school children. These are all monitoring 18 activities testing the extent of human exposure or 19 the effect of this radiation emission. 20 We also have recollections of monitoring 21 stations set up in residential areas, and some 22 incidence of weather balloon testing. That is, 23 people who recall weather balloons -- they called 24 them weather balloons -- being sent up into the 25 environment, tracing the paths that these weather NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 balloons took that looks at the wind dissemination 2 routes. All of this evidence points towards testing 3 of the extent of exposure or the health effects 4 relating to these emissions. 5 Now, this next part pertains to 6 voluntary consent. This is important. I am trying 7 to focus at this point upon one group of people -- 8 I'm an example of this group of people -- who were 9 subjected to radiation emissions from Hanford. I'm 10 the daughter of a Hanford worker. I was a fetus and 11 then an infant and then a child of one through 12 10 years old when I lived at Hanford. 13 There is no basis, no possible way I 14 could have given voluntary consent to be irradiated 15 at Hanford. My father, in fact, wore a radiation 16 badge during the day, a dosimeter, upon which he 17 detrimentally relied to indicate any radiation 18 emissions. He would never have consented to the 19 radiation of myself or my family. 20 In the case of a child of a non-Hanford 21 worker, these parents would have had no idea 22 whatsoever that there was any danger of radiation 23 exposure from Hanford. Children of those families 24 also could not have possibly given voluntary consent 25 for this exposure. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 During my last testimony, I went through 2 the diseases, the target organs that are affected by 3 the radionuclides from Hanford -- I have submitted 4 that list to you -- and the diseases that we are 5 seeing in the Hanford populace include thyroid 6 disease, thyroid cancer, hyperparathyroidism, 7 chronic fatigue syndrome, autoimmune diseases, 8 cancers, non-Hodgkins lymphoma, chronic indigestion, 9 infertility, recurrent migraine headaches, repressed 10 immune system, salivary gland throat disorders, 11 fibromyalgia. 12 And my last point I'd like to make, 13 because my time is running short, is this advisory 14 committee on human radiation experiments is charged 15 with recommending to the Interagency Working Group 16 remedies for abuses of human subjects in these 17 radiation experiments. 18 My assessment of the appropriate 19 remedies to human subjects of these experiments in 20 order of priority are: No-cost medical monitoring; 21 (b), No-cost health care for medical problems 22 logically linked to Hanford's radiation emissions; 23 (c), Damages in intentional tort or negligence for a 24 direct loss of bodily function, economic loss, pain 25 and suffering, hedonistic damages and future NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 damages; and, lastly, a public apology would 2 certainly help. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Let me 4 just ask -- First of all, let me thank you again 5 for a second testimony. Obviously you are very, 6 very helpful to us in our work. 7 The notion of the medical monitoring 8 that ought to occur, do you, from your advocacy work 9 in the kind of organizational outreach that you all 10 have available, do you see this as being -- is it 11 going to be difficult to create the monitoring 12 system that you think would be appropriate? I mean 13 have you had a chance to give some thought to the 14 conventions of this, how it would work and what are 15 the possibilities of being successful at doing it? 16 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: I think it can be 17 done. The first thing that needs to be done is 18 studies of this affected group. First of all, 19 anecdotal information needs to be collected on what 20 we are suffering, then we need to see which diseases 21 are being reported in highest prevalence, then a 22 study needs to be done to see whether there is a 23 statistically higher incidence of those diseases 24 within our affected populace. Once that is 25 established, monitoring for those priority diseases NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 should be easy to establish, including outside these 2 three states. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: One other thing again 4 that I asked an earlier speaker, this notion of any 5 other public health people who have been attracted 6 to doing some of this work. I mean there are 7 schools of public health, there are health 8 departments in some of the contiguous states. Have 9 you had any dialogue with those kinds of expertise 10 and have they -- how have they responded to you, if 11 in fact you've had dialogue? 12 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: My thought is the 13 first step is the need for collection of anecdotal 14 information on what we're suffering, and then the 15 studies need to be carried out; and at that point, 16 once we know what the major diseases are we are 17 suffering in high incidence, a proposal could be 18 made to a university, a public health department, in 19 an organized fashion saying, "Please assist us with 20 monitoring of these symptoms and the treatment." 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Any other quick 22 questions? 23 MR. THOMAS: I want to thank you for 24 your comments about this list of information that 25 you've compiled in answer to my question earlier NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 about the experimental purpose at Green Run. Could 2 you elaborate a little bit upon that? Is this 3 information you've already turned over to the 4 advisory committee, or could you tell us a little 5 bit more about what other information is contained 6 on these lists? 7 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Okay. First I 8 want to make a point which I failed to make earlier, 9 which is I feel the intentional releases include 10 more than just Green Run. There's something called 11 Project Blue Nose. 12 MR. THOMAS: We're aware of it. 13 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: So the list which 14 I have given to you is as complete of a list as I 15 have at this time. Is that -- 16 MR. THOMAS: Well, I guess the question 17 is what information is on the list other than the 18 subjects' names? Is there anything else that would 19 be useful to us? 20 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: You're asking me 21 in regards to the whole body monitoring? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes, that's what I thought 23 you were referring to. 24 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Yes. What I'm 25 trying to do is support our argument that all NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 branches of the definition of "human radiation 2 experiment" are met here at Hanford for certain 3 emissions. One of the branches of that definition 4 is that there was collection of information on the 5 health effects of these emissions, and I have a list 6 with me of the people who went through whole body 7 counts. 8 There may be someone testifying here in 9 a little while on that. We also -- I can get access 10 to the names as well of people who went through 11 throat palpation and other -- there was dietary 12 information data collection in the Tri Cities. This 13 is all monitoring in different ways. 14 MR. THOMAS: This is the part of the 15 story that's of great interest to the panel -- 16 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Uh-huh. 17 MR. THOMAS: -- so anything you could 18 provide to us would be helpful. I do need to 19 emphasize we need to be a little bit cautious about 20 information possibly identifying individuals -- 21 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Right. 22 MR. THOMAS: -- particularly since there 23 may be confidentiality and privacy issues. 24 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Yes, I've also 25 paid attention to that. All the people on this list NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 have already been interviewed by the media, the list 2 which I have with me. The other names are available 3 through other sources we have access to. 4 MR. THOMAS: Have you already provided 5 that or can you provide that information to the 6 staff? 7 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Yes, I can provide 8 that to you. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 10 Our next -- Thank you so much again. You did 11 great. 12 MS. TRISHA PRITIKIN: Okay. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mr. Frederick William 14 Larson. Thank you very much, Mr. Larson, for doing 15 this. 16 MR. FREDERICK WILLIAM LARSON: Thank 17 you, Mr. Chairman. 18 Members of the advisory committee, and 19 ladies and gentlemen, I was supposed to be 20 six-foot-two. As a result of the treatment I 21 received at a children's medical facility in 22 Portland, Oregon, Doernbecher Hospital by name, I 23 was treated for burns, and during the course of that 24 treatment I was irradiated by injection into the 25 left leg, which was amputated about four or 5 days NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 later, and injection into the right leg, which I'll 2 be glad to show any of you, which I've lived with 3 for some 45, 46 years. 4 I've heard a lot of talk about rules and 5 regulations and ethics, etc. I hope the evil died 6 with them. I hope the good -- what good there is of 7 it -- lives on after us. But some of the evil does 8 survive. I have three living children and one which 9 did not survive. She carried it to full term, but 10 it was horribly disfigured and it was just named 11 Baby Larson, while we were going to college. 12 I don't have any degrees or titles which 13 learned counsel has. I do have a B.S. degree, and 14 my wife has a Master's in science, and my boy's 15 going for his doctorate in physics, et cetera, so we 16 do have some brain cells, but it's hard to organize 17 45 years in just a few minutes, as you might well 18 imagine. 19 Suffice it to say that I believe that my 20 medical problems throughout the years after 21 discharge from Doernbecher Hospital in Portland, and 22 over all the years, are the result of medical 23 treatment and medical abuse received there in 1950, 24 1951. I'm certain now that I was experimented upon 25 and given radiation in various forms. I was not NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 expected to live and was consequently fair game for 2 medical experimentation at that time. 3 Unfortunately, the problems do not just 4 end with me, and it's actually just a side light. 5 My three living children and one that's just barely 6 alive are experiencing their share as well. My wife 7 was healthy. Our first born, as I mentioned, went 8 to full term, was stillborn in 1964. 9 Our second child, a daughter born in 10 '66, was diagnosed with a large, rare, malignant 11 head tumor, commonly found in Chinese males over the 12 age of 60. It's one in a billion, they say, to find 13 it in a female at the age of 21. She was treated at 14 UCLA, received 6,400 rads of cobalt to burn it out 15 of her brain, although it had already metastasized 16 into her lungs, and she has been fighting for seven 17 years to stay alive. Eight regimes of chemotherapy 18 and nine trips to Mexico for treatment outside the 19 medical system, which I seem to think did more good 20 for her than all the chemotherapy. To make matters 21 worse, her baby, when she was expecting just after 22 being diagnosed, was aborted because of a need for 23 the cobalt radiation at UCLA. 24 Our third child, a boy, was hospitalized 25 for numerous unexplained seizures as a baby, had NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 problems with childhood asthma, severe allergies, 2 fell into unconsciousness at odd moments. He was 3 treated at Washington Pediatric Adolescent Allergy 4 Clinic. He's now in college and headed for a 5 doctorate in physics. He seems to have had the 6 least problems so far. 7 Our fourth child, born in 1971, had 8 problems even before birth, had to be delivered 9 prematurely by C-section, as the doctors indicated 10 she would not live long enough to be born full term. 11 She was born with congenital problems, including her 12 digestive system; she could not digest foods. She 13 was on a special formula until the age of two and 14 could not eat normal substances. 15 Consequently, she was undernourished and 16 malnourished for her size. She weighed 8 pounds at 17 six months of age and 12 pounds at one year. Her 18 fontanelle closed early at four months, resulting in 19 her being watched closely by doctors for signs of 20 brain pressure and a dozen other problems. 21 She had monthly x-rays of her head as a 22 baby, hospitalized and given numerous developmental 23 tests at six months. She also had an impaired 24 immune system, treated continuously for respiratory 25 infections as a baby. So it was bad. She was NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 treated for cystic fibrosis and tested for it and 2 found to be negative. She had ruptures of the 3 eardrums, of course. Both the older girl and the 4 younger girl had tubes in their ears. The younger 5 girl improved, as she got older, even though she 6 left school at the age of 13 and returned later. 7 It appears the problems have progressed 8 to the next generation. She's now married. In 1992 9 her expected child was found to be severely 10 deformed. She had an amniocentesis. After 11 consultation with specialists, who indicated the 12 baby would not survive, the pregnancy was terminated 13 in Seattle. She's pregnant again. We'll see. 14 For many years, we wondered why we, my 15 family and I, had so many problems, so much illness 16 even though we eat well, do not smoke or drink, have 17 moderate habits, lived life in areas generally 18 considered to be clean, as far as air and water are 19 concerned. I believe that from the bottom of my 20 heart and realize that the unusual problems our 21 family is enduring are derived from the assault of 22 radiation and possible other tests that were 23 inflicted upon my body at a very early age. 24 I was not supposed to live, but I did. 25 I've suffered the consequences of these mad NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 scientists' experiments, in the hospital at the time 2 and every day since. But even worse, my children 3 must bear the consequences. I didn't sign a release 4 form at 11 years of age, gentlemen and ladies. My 5 father only provided a small release form that said, 6 "Treat him and get him well." 7 I believe that compensation for victims 8 of these experiments is impossible to give. I would 9 give $4 million to my wife or four children now that 10 she brought into the world; $3 million, one for each 11 kid, one for myself maybe. I don't know. What's a 12 leg worth? What's a right leg worth? What's a life 13 of pain and suffering? Real points. What's going 14 through radiation sickness worth? 15 Definitely, they knew they weren't 16 supposed to do it. That's why they went to the 17 problems and the expedience of drug-induced 18 hypnosis. That's they went to the expedience of 19 covering it up. That's why they didn't even let 20 their fellow physicians know what they were doing in 21 those crippled children's hospitals. 22 I'd be glad to answer any questions that 23 I'm capable of. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I want to thank you 25 for taking the time to come and share that. What I NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 think we're going to need to do is to have you be 2 able to speak to one of the staff such that we might 3 be able to see if there's any help we can be in your 4 being able to gain access to any of those records 5 back at that time. 6 That, I think, is going to be the next 7 stage here, is for you to be able to try to retrieve 8 some of the documents such that these concerns that 9 you expressed will have a chance to be -- 10 MR. FREDERICK WILLIAM LARSON: That's a 11 point well taken. I haven't done so because it's a 12 research institution -- 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Right. 14 MR. FREDERICK WILLIAM LARSON: -- and 15 they are required by law, because of the federal 16 moneys they receive, to keep all records of children 17 treated -- 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Right. 19 MR. FREDERICK WILLIAM LARSON: -- and I 20 have my yellow card. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well then, please -- 22 Thank you very much and, if you will, you can see 23 folks are sitting right here, give them your name, 24 and let's see if we can't be of help to you in that 25 regard. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. FREDERICK WILLIAM LARSON: Thank 2 you. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thanks for taking the 4 trouble. 5 Mrs. Brenda Weaver. Welcome, Mrs. Weaver. 6 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Thank you. I'm 7 sorry. Just as I stood up, my earring fell off. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, we won't start 9 the clock until your earring is appropriately 10 adjusted. 11 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I'm going to be 12 talking about my daughter, so I'm going to put a few 13 pictures up there that you can pass between the 14 panel. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Oh, okay. We'll make 16 sure you get these back. 17 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I am not any 18 scientist or research person or -- I'm a wife and 19 mother and hair stylist. Ladies and gentlemen of 20 the panel, my name's Brenda Weaver, and I am a 21 Downwinder. I now reside in Spokane, Washington, at 22 E. 1120 Woodcrest Court, 99208. 23 I lived, until 1965, seven miles 24 overland from Hanford in Block 14 on my parents' 25 farm in an area commonly referred to as Death Mile. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 In 1959, when I was 12 years old, the doctor put me 2 on thyroid and I have been on thyroid for 35 years 3 now. That same year I had pneumonia. I was 4 hospitalized, and in 1961 and '62, because it went 5 over a period of the -- a year period that was 6 covering two years, when I was 14 years old, I was 7 rushed to the hospital and had an ovary removed. 8 My mother and my sister all had surgery 9 that year. My mother's surgery was a hysterectomy. 10 She was 36. Also, that year is the year that my dad 11 had sheep born with horrible, horrible defects; legs 12 missing, parts of the body missing, and with eyes 13 missing. 14 My family seemed to always be sick with 15 something weird. My little brother was taken to 16 Spokane to the doctors with his eyes bleeding. We 17 never did find out exactly why that was. I can't 18 remember a time that someone wasn't sick or had 19 something. 20 When I was 18 years old, I graduated 21 from Pasco High, then I married and I conceived my 22 daughter Jamie while living there. On November 22nd, 23 1965, 29 years ago tomorrow, my daughter Jamie was 24 born without her eyes. She has eyelashes and 25 eyelids and tear ducts, but no eyes. It makes life NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 difficult, it's hard to be blind. 2 Jamie was in her first year of college 3 with her first guide dog when I heard about the 4 Hanford radiation from Tom Bailie and many others, 5 but when we read in the Spokesman Review a newspaper 6 article by Karen Dorn-Steele is when I found out all 7 about the radiation releases that were over the 8 years, plus the large amounts that were in the 9 sixties. 10 That's when I knew why my daughter had 11 no eyes. The same reason was because my dad's sheep 12 had no eyes. We were irradiated, used as guinea 13 pigs by our government. I could hardly believe it, 14 but I do remember, as a kid, men in white coats with 15 geiger counters coming to the farm. They were out 16 in the fields taking parts of dead animals, food. 17 The weather balloons would come over onto our 18 property. 19 Quite often the weather balloons -- we 20 just thought they were testing the weather, I guess. 21 Really, as a child, I didn't think that much about 22 it. It was kind of interesting seeing those people 23 running around, so we didn't worry about it. We 24 thought that this meant that our government was 25 taking care of us, and if there was anything going NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 on at Hanford, surely they would tell us; right? 2 My daughter Jamie teaches in Texas at 3 Texas Christian University. She has to keep three 4 part-time jobs in order to pay her bills. It's 5 difficult to get jobs when you have handicaps. 6 There is discrimination and so forth. Because she 7 doesn't have enough money to pay for her own health 8 care, she is reduced to using this Texas state 9 Medicaid, which means she can only use the doctors 10 which take the coupons, which there aren't that many 11 that do, so you don't receive the kind of health 12 care that you desire. 13 Right now my daughter needs a new pair 14 of artificial eyes, at the cost of $3,200 a pair. 15 You have to have them replaced every four to five 16 years because they get cracks and they begin to get 17 problems with the eyes and infections and such. 18 The state will not pay for the eyes 19 because they say they're cosmetic and not because 20 she needs them, but she does need them because the 21 eyes hold the sockets open. Otherwise, they would 22 shrink. So her father and I must pay for the eyes. 23 It's degrading when you're a 29-year-old and you've 24 worked hard, you've paid your taxes, you're 25 independent, you're not married and you don't live NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 at home, and you're blind to have your parents have 2 to pay your bills. 3 I also have health problems. I have 4 sinus problems, years of allergies, asthma, 5 arthritis, tendonitis, bursitis, thyroid problems, 6 stomach problems, female problems, I have 7 fibromyalgia, and now they're looking at me to see 8 if I have lupus. What more? What more to come? 9 I am 47 years old and I feel like I'm 10 80. And what more to come for my daughter? Will 11 she be able to have children and will they be okay? 12 These are things I worry about. And I don't need to 13 have a medical doctor or a scientist -- I don't need 14 to be a medical doctor or a scientist to know that 15 strange things are happening to my body and to my 16 daughter's body that are not normal or common. 17 I am here today to tell you that as a 18 U.S. citizen I'm very angry at my government who has 19 experimented with my life and my family's 20 unknowingly and without my permission and then lied 21 about it. 22 What I -- what we demand now is not just 23 apology, but we want our government to accept 24 responsibility for its actions, be accountable for 25 what it has done. We want our rights restored, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 restitution, remediation, health care and action. 2 We will no longer be the silent victims of Hanford 3 and the government. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: You're welcome. 6 Thank you very, very much. Let me just ask the 7 first question then. When you had the ovary removed 8 at 14, age 14 or so -- 9 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: (Nods head 10 affirmatively.) 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- did you have an 12 opportunity to find out what that diagnosis was, or 13 when you went back and you were pregnant and the 14 obstetrician was, you know, going through your 15 medical record, did it come up as to what the reason 16 for that removal was? 17 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Actually, I did not 18 have the same doctor. The ovary was removed in 19 Othello, and I lived in Wenatchee during the latter 20 part of my pregnancy. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. So at this 22 point you're not sure what the reason was. Did they 23 tell you much about it? 24 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: They said that the 25 ovary ruptured. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: The ovary ruptured? 2 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: That's what they 3 said. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. The other 5 thing that would be interesting -- You know, I'm 6 from back East -- 7 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Um-hmm. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- so I -- I've not 9 been able to get a good sense of the number of 10 people who speak to us from this community, from the 11 Downwinder community, who have had thyroid problems. 12 Was that -- I mean were you aware that there were a 13 lot of people with thyroid problems? Was this a 14 common part of the culture in this community, that 15 folks had thyroid problems and you just kind of knew 16 it? 17 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Yes, and we just 18 didn't think about it. I think that we were really 19 ignorant. I just guess we -- I -- you know, what 20 does a 12-year-old think about thyroid? You go to 21 the doctor, and this is back when they tested you 22 when you breathed into the machine. Of course, I'm 23 tested, you know, every year, sometimes twice a year 24 since that time. The doctor has told me that my 25 thyroid was killed long ago. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: See what I mean? So 2 when that kind of conversation happened, I don't 3 know whether or not it was common for parents at 4 some point, at the barbecue or at the social event 5 to say, you know, "Boy, there's a lot of kids that 6 seem to be having this trouble." I mean was that -- 7 When you were coming up, was it much speculated on 8 what -- did the health department write letters? 9 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I can't answer that 10 because I don't know. I don't know that. I do know 11 there was some speculation when the sheep were born. 12 I do know there was some talk then. You know, you 13 have to remember that my father was -- had the 14 opportunity to receive this land. It was a land 15 grant, you know, a lottery-type thing, and we were 16 on this land because, you know, my father was a 17 veteran; and we felt privileged, we were proud to 18 live there. 19 We thought we were living in a land of 20 plenty, and we didn't, you know -- my -- we were all 21 very much for it. This is after World War II, you 22 remember, and we never questioned our government. 23 We never questioned that -- You know, maybe they 24 talked it a little when the sheep were born, but I 25 mean we just felt that if there was anything wrong, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 we'd be told. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Well, 3 listen, thank you very much for -- 4 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I would say about 5 this being born about eyes is a very, very uncommon 6 and rare birth defect. I do know -- I have a 7 picture of a little girl who was from Utah, who I've 8 met the mother, and she was born, also, without 9 eyes. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just ask you 11 on this, and I know we've got to move along, when 12 the decision was to made to not pay for the ocular 13 prosthesis for the eyes -- 14 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- it was because it 16 was felt that it was cosmetic -- 17 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Right. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- as opposed to 19 therapeutic? 20 Was there also a sense of that if it had 21 been therapeutic, that they would have paid for it; 22 and if so, under what provisions? 23 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I really wish my 24 daughter was here to discuss that with you. She's 25 talked to them in Texas and informed us. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Oh, this is Texas, 2 not here. I'm sorry. 3 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Yes. She's moved, 4 she's not a Washington state resident at this time. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. I think I 6 understand. Listen, thank you very, very much. 7 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And very 9 conveniently, Tom Bailie, Mr. Thomas Bailie. 10 Welcome, Mr. Bailie. Thanks. 11 MR. TOM BAILIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 I'd like to present this letter. It's 13 just some ramblings of a simple peasant farmer. I 14 wrote it one night when I was so depressed I 15 couldn't stay awake. I'll read it into the record. 16 I -- 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just mention 18 for folks that present us these things that they are 19 xeroxed and presented to all members of the 20 committee. I just want you to know that if you take 21 the trouble to bring it to us, we do deal with it. 22 Thank you. Let's restart the clock. 23 MR. TOM BAILIE: Thank you very much for 24 having this meeting. We appreciate it a lot. I'm 25 going to move along rather quickly, so -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 As a child, I was born downwind of 2 Hanford in 1947. I'm kind of Downwinder No. 1. I'm 3 one of the first children born. My older brother 4 was born deaf, my sisters were born with birth 5 defects, I was born with birth defects. 6 I spent a life pretty miserable. I was 7 the class cripple growing up in school. I had 8 cracking and puss running out of open sores on my 9 body from the time I was 6 years old. I was 10 paralyzed. I had my tonsils removed. I've had five 11 major invasive surgeries to correct birth defects 12 and other problems I had. I grew up with asthma, an 13 85-percent lung capacity, hearing disability. I was 14 a mess as a kid. I remember my hair falling out 15 three different times, constant flu-like conditions. 16 With that, I'm going to go right to -- 17 directly to one stay in the hospital, at St. Maries 18 Hospital in Walla Walla; and I believe at that point 19 is where I was really studied and used as a guinea 20 pig. I was put in the Special Medicine section at 21 St. Maries Hospital. They had a special area there. 22 All around me on the floor were crippled children. 23 I was put in isolation as a child. My 24 parents were kept out from me for about 60 days. 25 The only people that communicated with me were the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 nuns, a Polish nurse, my daytime doctor and the 2 special doctors that came in at night. They always 3 wore masks. Sometimes they spoke in German. And 4 they came in at 2:00 o'clock and woke me up and I 5 was administered, by Sister Kate, heat treatments. 6 Now, I went into the iron lung, my 7 condition worsened, and I went down into the iron 8 lung to the point that I can remember my night 9 doctor standing over me and they were talking in 10 English and they said, "Are we going to let this one 11 die," and they said the decision hadn't been made 12 yet. 13 The last thing I remember about laying 14 in that iron lung was everything just kind of 15 floating away. It was hot. The next thing I 16 remember is falling down the stairs in a wheelchair 17 in that hospital. I'd gotten in a wheelchair and I 18 was rolling around the hospital, and the nurse 19 picked me up and paddled my butt and told me to get 20 back up to my room. I entered therapy, I started 21 the first grade in leg braces. 22 I really want to know what was going on 23 in that hospital. Since then, a fellow who was an 24 aide in that hospital came to me and told me about 25 the Special Medicine section in St. Maries Hospital NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 in Walla Walla. 2 My job is to bring you gentlemen and 3 ladies clues to do your job. I'd like for you to 4 focus on the veteran's hospital in Walla Walla. 5 I've talked to veterans who were injected, and won't 6 come forward and talk about it, and used in 7 radiation studies at Walla Walla. People that were 8 in St. Maries Hospital with me. I used to get up, 9 after I was moving around on the crutches, and check 10 the other children, see how many they were. You 11 always knew a kid died during the night by the empty 12 bed. The bedroom would be empty there and -- they 13 would be empty in the morning where they'd come in 14 to clean. 15 The whole floor was full of paralyzed 16 children. You don't have to be a rocket scientist 17 to read a medical book that says "dysfunctioning 18 thyroids lead to paralysis." 19 Now, that was my childhood experience, 20 and I'm going to step forward here and present 21 another very interesting aspect of the Hanford 22 operations that very few people can even suspect -- 23 once again, I'm not a scientist or an educated man 24 -- but there's two generations of Downwinders. 25 There's first-generation Downwinders NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 that were used in the Green Run 49, which I'm a part 2 of, and those releases of those biological weapons 3 research projects that the government did on us 4 children there showed a lot of different things, 5 what levels would affect a European population base, 6 like in Odessa and Ritzville. 7 A second study, I think, needed to be 8 set up and used on the second generation of 9 Downwinders, where you brought in veterans who had 10 all different health habits, had nothing in common 11 except they were brought in to farm this land. 12 That's where Karen Dorn-Steele and I stumble on 13 what's known as the "Death Mile," where Brenda 14 Weaver comes from. 15 All those people showed up in 1956 at my 16 doorstep -- I was the only kid there -- and they all 17 showed up one morning in old cars and trailers and 18 said, "We own this land now and we're going to build 19 a house." They had nothing in common. They came 20 from all different religious, ethnic backgrounds, 21 different genetics. 22 The only thing, 40-some years later, 23 that they have on that Death Mile is now 100 percent 24 of those families that drank the water, drank the 25 milk, ate the food, have one common denominator that NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 binds us together, and that is thyroid problems, 2 handicapped children or cancer. 3 Something happened there and I suspect 4 -- and I'm here today to point out this map on the 5 wall -- if one wanted to set up a laboratory for 6 human guinea pigs to study biological weapons 7 research, it would be neat projects like, "Gee, how 8 much iodine 131 does it take to have Communist sheep 9 born without eyes? And if we could kill all the 10 sheep, probably the Commies would go hungry that 11 year. Or how about killing the wheat crop? If we 12 could spread an agent over the wheat crop in Russia, 13 they'd have to buy wheat from America." 14 So I mean your mind can go crazy 15 dreaming up these projects, and it would be 16 wonderful for the continuing research money to flow, 17 if one were an educated person in that position able 18 to do that. 19 It's interesting to note that this 20 project was set up in blocks of about 5,000 acres 21 and brought in on different timelines, each farm 22 unit was given a number, an identification number, 23 and each family was there. 24 One of the other things that I have is 25 the food chain. You know, she's -- Trish spoke NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 about Operation Blue Nose. I've been employed in 2 Operation Brown Nose for quite some time now, and 3 that's the HEDR Study that's been going on, because 4 here in 1960 the work's already been done on a diet 5 by the Farmers Home Administration. They kept track 6 of everything Brenda Weaver ate, drank, and how much 7 milk was consumed; and yet everybody refuses to use 8 these or acknowledge that we have these. 9 Now, I'm going to summarize and -- am I 10 about out of time? -- real quick to the committee. 11 You know, you have to overcome the understandable 12 concern of conflicts of interest here on this 13 committee. I would suggest to you, and I support 14 the notion, that no member of an institution that 15 participated in the experimentation crime should 16 serve on this committee. I think you owe that much 17 to us. And the same thing, same relationship with 18 nuclear industry people; people that make a living 19 irradiating people today probably still shouldn't be 20 serving on this committee. 21 I don't know who the makeup of the 22 committee is, but I want you to be aware of that. 23 We've seen it in other committees where industry 24 representatives override the concerns of people like 25 us who have no known credentials or credibility, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 just some crazy victims. 2 I'm going to close with an explanation, 3 and answer your question, Mr. Chairman, about did we 4 really look around and talk. No, we were busy 5 making a living. And I'm going to quote from one of 6 the AEC documents on how they consider us 7 Downwinders. We are "a minority of low education, 8 skill, low-use segment of the American population." 9 That's how these criminals viewed us, not that we 10 paid the taxes that eventually flowed into their 11 research money that gave them a wonderful lifestyle 12 to build their foundations by irradiating us. 13 What I'm asking for I've asked for all 14 along: Treatment, treatment, treatment. But with 15 that, an admission from the government that they did 16 this, and an apology similar to what they did for 17 the Japanese attorneys, and I want a warm place to 18 die. Now, that sounds funny, but I think that some 19 of the other Downwinders will support me on that 20 request. A warm place to die means a lot. 21 If you use me for a guinea pig, I want 22 medication when my radiogenic disease shows up. 23 When the latency period runs out and I've finally 24 got one that I can't kick, I want three meals a day, 25 I want you to pay for the medicine, and I want a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 warm bed to die in, because, believe me, a lot of 2 the Downwinders -- you know, this laboratory 3 cleanses itself economically. When one farmer gets 4 sick, he's foreclosed on because he takes some money 5 for health care for his children. 6 My government did this without an 7 explanation. There should be accountability to 8 these jerks that did it. This is a crime against 9 humanity and a crime against us, and I just can't 10 believe it. And we're furious about it. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Tom, thank you. Let 13 me -- 14 (Applause from audience.) 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just make 16 sure -- First of all, you have so much information. 17 You brought the map, and so forth, and I know you 18 carefully made sure that it was there. The limits 19 of time don't allow us to get at everything. Can I 20 be -- First of all, you're connected with our staff 21 folks, right? You've talked with them -- 22 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- at length, haven't 24 you? 25 MR. TOM BAILIE: When they can get ahold NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 of me, yeah. I make a living farming. I've been on 2 a harvest over there. We're just finishing corn 3 harvest. I am a peasant farmer. That's how I make 4 a so-called living. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: The documents, for 6 example, the food list and so forth, those kinds of 7 things that you only touched on briefly, are you 8 able to share those with us, the staff folks, today 9 in a little more detail? 10 MR. TOM BAILIE: Sure. Sure. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I think it's very 12 important that we really have time to debrief you. 13 Can you be with us a little bit longer today? 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: Sure. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Maybe Mike can -- 16 MR. TOM BAILIE: This book, this FHA 17 book, is the one that Karen Dorn-Steele is a 18 reporter on. I might recommend you read "Atomic 19 Harvest," the book "Atomic Harvest." Have any of 20 you read it? Karen Dorn-Steele, from a flippant 21 remark that I made one night at a fundraiser, 22 unearthed this whole thing. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just also make 24 sure -- 25 Steve, I don't know. I'm trying to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 catch up here real quick, but the "Mile" that he 2 describes, were we aware of it? 3 MR. KLAIDMAN: The existence of it. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We were aware of the 5 existence of it, but we don't know a lot about it? 6 MR. TOM BAILIE: And that's the second 7 generation. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So, again, who's the 9 most appropriate one for him to connect with? 10 MR. KLAIDMAN: Either Mark or Debbie. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mark or Debbie. 12 Let me just take this time to mention 13 that when we mention to talk to staff, that means -- 14 you know, the folks who staff this commission are -- 15 I mean these are experts. These are people that are 16 very, very bright, very well-educated people, so 17 we're not just throwing you off the edge here. 18 These are people -- I mean these are the people. 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. I believe you. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Now, so what I need 21 is you to really spend time with them. 22 The other thing is I would just hope 23 that -- you know, our commission, we're going to 24 make good on our responsibility. It's hard. You're 25 not going to -- you're never going to make everybody NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 happy. There's no way. It's going to be a tough 2 job we have. 3 I just want to say that regardless of 4 the points you make -- and I respect you for the 5 points you make, the concerns you've expressed about 6 the composition of our group -- I must say as a 7 representative of that group that this is a fair 8 group of Americans, this is a group of people who 9 care very much about what they're doing; and I would 10 just have to say to you, by the end of the process 11 when you see what we went through and how we got to 12 our conclusions and what our conclusions are, I 13 sincerely hope, sir, that we will have made you 14 proud of our commission in the sense that we went at 15 this unbiased, we went at this for the best of 16 reasons and we did our job as best we could. And I 17 know that you can't -- you'll just have to see how 18 it just turns out, but I really expect that when 19 it's all over that you'll feel really happy about 20 these group of Americans that participated in this 21 process. 22 Does anybody have a quick question? 23 MR. THOMAS: I just wanted to follow up 24 on that comment that was -- you were quoting from an 25 AEC document characterizing the Downwinders as a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 "low-use population"? 2 MR. TOM BAILIE: Want me to interpret 3 that? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 5 MR. TOM BAILIE: The interpretation of 6 that is "white Republican farmers." "A minority of 7 low education, skill, low-use segment," the 8 interpretation is what we are, is white Republican 9 farmers. I thought you'd get a kick out of that. 10 MR. THOMAS: Do you have the original 11 document? 12 MR. TOM BAILIE: The document is in the 13 possession of Michelle Stenham (phonetic). She 14 mentions it in her book. 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. If you could, you 16 know, pass that information on to Mark or whichever 17 of the staff members -- 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's the kind of 19 thing we're trying to get at. I mean all the those 20 points that you made, we really need you to -- 21 MR. TOM BAILIE: -- document. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Or just show us, you 23 know; at least give us some leads about how to track 24 those things down. 25 MR. THOMAS: It's particularly important NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 for us to know the context in which such remarks 2 were made, whether it was in the context of 3 designing particular experiments or an incidental 4 release. That could shed crucial information on the 5 reasons for reporting on the experiments that are 6 being discussed. 7 MS. LEDERER: Have you made the effort 8 of trying to get your hospital records from your 9 stay at St. Maries Hospital? 10 MR. TOM BAILIE: I asked for my hospital 11 records from St. Maries Lady of Lords where I spent 12 most of my youth. I asked Olympia to come forward 13 with my hospital records. They show two visits to a 14 hospital, the day I was born and one day that I cut 15 my hand. 16 There's no record of my entire health 17 childhood, and I don't understand why; but there's a 18 gentleman here that used to be an aide or an orderly 19 at that hospital, at St. Maries Hospital in Walla 20 Walla. They boarded up that Special Medicine 21 section and sealed it off from the rest of the 22 hospital in the sixties and seventies. I would 23 suspect that the records probably got destroyed with 24 the hospital 'cause the whole thing was torn down 25 when they built a new hospital. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: No records. 2 MR. TOM BAILIE: No records, no; and I 3 think you'll find other Downwinders with the same 4 testimony. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, Tom, again, I 6 think also in terms of your personal story and the 7 number of birth defects in your siblings, your 8 brother's -- 9 MR. TOM BAILIE: At age 18, I forgot to 10 mention that, I found out I was sterile. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, these are the 12 things, again, we want to get into. Tom, thank you 13 for the information. Well, Mr. Bailie, thank you. 14 We very much appreciate it. 15 Mr. Lynn Grover and Mrs. Michelle 16 Grover, welcome. 17 I've had a chance to meet Mrs. Grover 18 for a moment, and I want to just say to all of us, 19 Mrs. Grover, I really appreciate your overcoming the 20 trepidations about doing this; and we absolutely are 21 going to take our time and I hope you'll be very 22 relaxed, and we are very eager to hear what you say, 23 whatever you say, and whatever way you say it. 24 Welcome. 25 MR. LYNN GROVER: Thank you. I'm just NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 here to tell a few things that happened on the farm 2 that, until a few years ago, I thought they were 3 quite common to everybody in the whole world. I was 4 born in Mud Lake. I grew up in Mud Lake, Idaho, for 5 about three years. Then we moved on to the Basin, 6 just a few miles from White Bluffs and the Hanford 7 region there. 8 There my little sister was born, and in 9 the mid-sixties, her hair fell out and she had red 10 blotches on her body. The same year, a lot of the 11 wildlife that was in the area -- we were some of the 12 first farmers in that area -- and you'd find dead 13 birds and coyotes with large amounts of hair not on 14 their bodies, that had fallen off, or was infected. 15 As kids, it just looked like collared dogs on the 16 horizon, 'cause we didn't know anything was going 17 on; and to us, it looked like, well, okay, wild 18 animals get sick. 19 But to continue on here, about the same 20 year there, too, my mom and me, we got free medical 21 in the mobile unit that just dragged their -- I 22 remember them almost as mobile tents, where there 23 was x-rays, and you talked to the doctors and 24 whoever was there -- I don't know who they were -- 25 and at the end, they just gave you sandwich bags NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 full of pills. 2 My mom remembers it, but she doesn't 3 know who they were either, and I don't know who they 4 were. There's just a few people that remember who 5 they are, but I do remember, you know, where it was, 6 in Pasco, Washington, where it was the free medical. 7 My medical history, I was diagnosed as 8 polio. I had hearing and speech therapy in school. 9 I currently have a heart problem, asthma. My dad 10 died of heart problems. My mom has thyroid problems 11 and has pernicious anemia and she has heart 12 problems. My little sister, she's doing fairly good 13 now, but she has periodically experienced hair loss 14 until she moved out of the area, and I think they 15 don't have to take thyroid anymore either. 16 My wife here has arthritis and a few -- 17 she's on thyroid, a few problems like that. We've 18 also lost four children, three miscarriages and one 19 died from -- I don't know what the medical term is, 20 but the artery to the heart wasn't hooked up when it 21 was born, so it died when the fetal artery -- bypass 22 artery closed up. 23 That's about it for what I have to say. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 25 You have time, whatever you'd like us to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 know (speaking to Mrs. Grover). 2 MR. TOM BAILIE: Mr. Chairman, Mickie 3 has had a lot of speech therapy as a child. 4 Right? 5 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: Sixteen years of 6 speech therapy in my life. 7 MR. TOM BAILIE: And you had your 8 thyroid operated on? 9 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: I'm taking 10 medication for it and it seems to be working, but I 11 have to be on it for quite awhile. 12 MR. TOM BAILIE: She's has what's 13 locally -- what a lot of lot us locally call "the 14 Hanford necklace." You can spot a Downwinder in any 15 area, the Hanford necklace is the scar. A lot of 16 the women have it. 17 And you've lost how many children? 18 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: Four. 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: You've lost four 20 children. You can't adopt. 21 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: No. 22 MR. TOM BAILIE: You're not going to try 23 anymore because of the problems, right? 24 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: Right. 25 MR. TOM BAILIE: The heartbreak has been NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 enough. 2 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I've noticed the 4 pictures you've given us. You want to tell us a 5 little bit about those pictures? 6 MR. GROVER: That was a picture of our 7 last child. 8 MRS. MICHELLE GROVER: Yeah. 9 MR. GROVER: And she has a cleft palate, 10 but that was correctable through surgery; but that 11 was the one that died from the heart thing. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I see. Let me ask 13 you. One of the things that -- Tom, since you're 14 still up there with them -- have you had a chance to 15 put all this together geographically? I mean again 16 where you -- You mentioned with your first 17 daughter, sir, that you were among the first 18 families to come in and work this land. Is that 19 land in -- is close by from what we just heard from 20 Ms. Weaver and so forth? 21 MR. TOM BAILIE: Second generation. May 22 I -- 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Please. 24 MR. TOM BAILIE: The map answers a 25 million things. I'm sorry to do this to the camera NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 personnel. I really apologize. But if I could have 2 a marker -- Is there a Magic Marker? 3 MR. ROYAL: This is indelible. 4 MR. TOM BAILIE: It is important -- 5 MR. ROYAL: It's indelible. It won't 6 erase. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: It won't erase. 8 MR. TOM BAILIE: Oh, okay. I want the 9 erasable. 10 I was born right here (demonstrating on 11 map). Mr. Grover farmed right here. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Just a second. I'm 13 sorry. Hold on. Let us -- 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Turn the light on 15 the object. 16 MR. TOM BAILIE: Mr. Grover -- I was 17 born right here and none of the people were here. 18 Then Mr. Grover and Mrs. Weaver and the rest of the 19 Downwinders moved in and they received a numbered 20 piece of land. Mr. Grover was here, I was here, 21 Mrs. Weaver was here. 22 Yes, the answer is all these stories are 23 in the same area. But what's interesting, we went 24 to school and our nurse would palpitate our thyroids 25 twice a year at this area here. We got run through NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 whole body counts occasionally and also told 2 everything was fine. 3 What I'm finding very interesting is -- 4 Gary Wilson, who was supposed to testify today, 5 couldn't make it, he lived in Quincy and his class 6 was pulled out of school, similar to what you'll 7 hear coming up with more testimony, and taken to the 8 military base at Moses Lake, a Washington Air Force 9 base, where these children were put through tests, 10 measured their fatty tissues, and they were tested, 11 and their diets were followed, and they were given 12 pills to take, also; but they were selected 13 children. 14 And these children are very paranoid 15 about this. They just didn't know, and people don't 16 want to talk about it because we were told not to 17 talk about it and the doctors in our community say, 18 "If you have cancer, don't tell anybody. It's a 19 dirty disease. You got it because you're dirty." 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me ask this now. 21 Let me try to understand this. This land -- 22 MR. TOM BAILIE: This whole area -- 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: No, I understand. I 24 understand. Okay. This land here, for example, 25 this area was unfarmed, uninhabited by folks. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. TOM BAILIE: Except for our family, 2 except for your family (motioning). My family right 3 here, we farmed literally 13,000 acres of all that 4 land, and then the government came in in '55 and 5 says, "Don't you farm it anymore. All of these 6 other people are coming to farm it." 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So every one of these 8 areas, it was assigned -- there was a number and 9 people were assigned to it. 10 MR. TOM BAILIE: That was their farm 11 unit. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And these are people 13 that farmed this after the war. 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: Right. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And these are 16 veterans' families? 17 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: And the Bureau of 20 Reclamation interviewed them before they could go 21 onto the lot. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Now, the families 23 that came in there, have they pretty much, by and 24 large, stayed in the community or have they moved 25 on? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. TOM BAILIE: Brenda? 2 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Yes? 3 MR. TOM BAILIE: Lynn? Who else is 4 here? 5 I want you to tell me if I -- stop me if 6 I tell a lie, okay? I mean really. 7 I'm going to do it this way on the Death 8 Mile real quickly, Mr. Chairman, and I'm going to 9 answer your question about that. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Go ahead. 11 MR. TOM BAILIE: The Death Mile runs 12 right here on this road, okay? Once again, it's 13 1956 when all these people showed up. They don't 14 even know each other. They started farming. Here's 15 the Bailie farm right here. All our cancers, you've 16 heard my history. 17 Ira Hammons (phonetic) died of cancer. 18 His wife has leukemia. Tommy's thyroid has been cut 19 out. 20 The Livesey (phonetic) girls are all on 21 thyroid medication. Ruth Livesey's on thyroid 22 medication. 23 Brenda, you here? 24 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I'm right here. 25 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. 'Cause, you NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 know, the soapbox is ours. Somebody's got to back 2 me up. 3 Okay. Liveseys. Mrs. Forest had breast 4 cancer and had a breast removed. 5 Mrs. Lee is fighting cancer right now. 6 Her husband died of cancer. 7 Across the road was the land leveler, 8 whose wife had the baby, it was deformed, and she 9 drowned it and then slit her wrists in the bathtub. 10 Do you remember that, us getting on the bus and -- 11 MRS. WEAVER: I remember, but I don't 12 remember her name. 13 MR. TOM BAILIE: Well, he died of lung 14 cancer. 15 Then Bonnie Holmes is on this unit right 16 here, Farm Unit 34. Bonnie Holmes, she died of that 17 real fast bone cancer, took her 28 days; left those 18 two kids. Now the daughters are both sick. 19 Then we go from Holmes, Bud Johnson died 20 of cancer. Gelda has leukemia, their daughter has -- 21 Gelda, his wife is fighting leukemia, their daughter 22 has thyroid cancer. 23 You go up here to the Johnson family, 24 both Mr. and Mrs. Johnson have serious medical 25 problems. Their daughters take thyroid medication. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 The Lipps (phonetic) family across the 2 road, both had cancer. 3 Alice Wetzel (phonetic) died of cancer. 4 Darrel Sharp (phonetic) was a regular 5 veteran, the one that his arm was cut off, the 6 Japanese cut his arm off, and he had a little farm. 7 MRS. WEAVER: Um-hmm, um-hmm. 8 MR. TOM BAILIE: He died of cancer. His 9 wife's fighting cancer. 10 Darrel Sharp, his boy that's our age, 11 his immune system's gone. He was in Viet Nam and 12 the Agent Orange, I think, got him. 13 Sandy's in an institution 'cause her 14 thyroid is so dysfunctional she can't think. 15 They've got her locked up. 16 Barbara's had cancer surgery. The two 17 younger kids had cancer. They lost two babies. 18 (Clarification requested by reporter.) 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: I'm trying to get 20 through this. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I tell you what, Tom, 22 first of all -- 23 MR. TOM BAILIE: The bottom line is out 24 of Death Mile, 100 percent of the people -- 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. I got that. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. Now let's ask 2 who's still living there. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah. 4 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. Brenda Weaver, 5 do you still live here? 6 MRS. BRENDA weaver: No. 7 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. 8 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: My family still 9 lives there. 10 MR. TOM BAILIE: I know. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Your family still 12 lives there. 13 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Right. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. 15 MR. TOM BAILIE: My family still lives 16 here. The Hammons family, all the Hammonses still 17 there. The Liveseys live in Phoenix. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah, that's what I 19 need to know, but let me ask you this: Downwind -- 20 What I'm getting at is -- 21 MR. TOM BAILIE: The answer is most of 22 them do not live there because what happens when you 23 have a child with a life-threatening disease you 24 have to go -- in the old days, they sent you to the 25 University of Washington hospital with any type of a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 cancer, or Sacred Heart up here, for serious 2 illnesses. 3 And when they found out you were a 4 farmer -- Most of the farmers didn't have health 5 care coverage because it costs money to buy 6 insurance. They want paid. When they find out 7 you're a farmer, then the credit department can 8 attach that land with a lien, a judgment can be 9 placed against it for the long-term care of a child. 10 What a farmer would do to start is he 11 would sell a cow or sell some wheat in the child's 12 name, cash the check to get medical care. Then he 13 committed a crime that's called the "conversion of 14 assets" from his lender. Then he was foreclosed 15 upon. Two years later that family, who was harmed 16 the worst, is foreclosed upon and moved out of this 17 laboratory. 18 So when the state of Washington looks 19 downwind, they say, "We don't see any problems 20 downwind." They're in fact almost telling the truth 21 because this is cleansed. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Now, let me 23 ask this. Let ask just make it real quick, Tom. 24 First of all, what you just told us, has any health 25 department person or anybody else ever come back NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 behind you and collected that information to date? 2 MR. TOM BAILIE: No. They just come 3 in -- Mr. Milham comes in and says, "The Downwinders 4 are a little bit psychologically unbalanced. We 5 show no identifiable problems here and we show no 6 thyroid problems." 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So, again, let me 8 make sure I get this exactly right. You are saying 9 that the health department has come and listened to 10 what you've said. 11 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yes. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: What they're saying 13 is that they don't agree -- 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: That's correct. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- that these cancers 16 have existed in these people. 17 MR. TOM BAILIE: That's absolutely 18 correct. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Have they made a 20 report that says that? I mean can we get a copy of 21 that report? 22 MR. TOM BAILIE: Al, do you have 23 something that Sam did on that first question on the 24 Downwinders? 25 MR. AL CONKLIN: I think we can find it. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 I know he produced a report. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So, in other words, 3 let me just make sure -- I'm sorry for the 4 transcriber. We're driving her crazy. The person 5 we're speaking to now is Mr. Conklin, who is here 6 from the health department. 7 Now, I imagine that you're -- having 8 been a former health department director, I'm sure 9 you probably have to be cautious about what you say 10 and we just -- 11 MR. AL CONKLIN: Oh, I'm never cautious. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. Let me 13 just see if I understand now. Has the Department of 14 Health been made aware of the kind of things that he 15 is saying? And if so, have you done your own 16 assessment of it and have you come up with different 17 conclusions than Mr. Bailie has? 18 MR. AL CONKLIN: Yes, the Department 19 knows about them. Sam Milham, a former 20 epidemiologist, now retired with the state, did go 21 and do an analysis. He wrote a report that 22 represented his personal opinion on the matter and 23 not necessarily the position of the Department of 24 Health. 25 MR. TOM BAILIE: Oh. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. AL CONKLIN: That was his opinion. 2 I'm not aware that the Department currently has a 3 stand on, you know, what caused these health effects 4 or anything. As a matter of fact, I know we don't. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: One of the things we 6 might want to do, and maybe we can get it done 7 during the break, is to find out whether it is 8 quickly obtainable, whether or not the Department 9 has a -- 10 MR. AL CONKLIN: I think we have. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- has a stand. 12 MR. AL CONKLIN: I think we can find it. 13 I know the report that Tom is talking about. If I 14 don't have a copy around, I think we could find one 15 and get it to you. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just say I 17 would appreciate it if you could check on it during 18 the break, only because obviously what Mr. Bailie is 19 saying is extremely powerful and it's of interest; 20 and when we try to figure out how we begin to try to 21 understand what we're learning and to see what the 22 realities are, the subtleties of it, what we don't 23 want to do is overreact to things. And we want to 24 make sure -- you know, we're still learning. We're 25 not here to draw yet these conclusions, but the more NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 information we have while we're here, the better it 2 is. 3 So maybe -- Let me just say the other 4 thing I wanted to make sure I understood, just for 5 the ability to go back and take a look, why I was 6 interested in what families are still here is that, 7 you know, there's some continuity. People, this was 8 their land given to them and so forth; and those 9 families that are still there, perhaps we can 10 help people that can go back in and elicit some of 11 the information. 12 But the other thing you said is where 13 people went to get their health care, such that the 14 medical records would be in only, I imagine -- I 15 imagine only a few institutions. Now, what were 16 those hospitals that people went to? 17 MR. TOM BAILIE: One of the things -- 18 When we first stumbled on this, Karen Dorn-Steele 19 came up with this, and she called one of the 20 Downwinders in Spokane and set by his bed when he 21 died and watched what happened. He lived his life 22 here (indicating) running a tractor in the 23 contaminants; died up here in Spokane. He was 24 listed as a death -- correct me if I'm wrong, 25 Karen -- Ed Schutz (phonetic) died in Spokane and he NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 was listed as a Spokane County statistic; and he 2 didn't die from the huge cancers he had all over 3 him. 4 He died from what? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Pneumonia. 6 MR. TOM BAILIE: Pneumonia. It was 7 never listed as a cancer death. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Tom, thank you. 9 Let's all get back to our chairs, 10 please. 11 MR. THOMAS: Help us out to get a little 12 bit oriented here. My understanding is that the 13 Hanford plant is -- 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: This is the 200 East 15 and West area. Here's the reactor. Here's the farm 16 land. We farmed right up to this fence line in the 17 old days. 18 MR. THOMAS: Are you familiar with the 19 dose calculations released by the HEDR project? 20 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yes. 21 MR. THOMAS: Do you know -- Can you 22 point out up there as to where the predominant 23 direction of the contamination would have gone? 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: This direction 25 (indicating). NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. TOM BAILIE: All the prevailing 2 winds went right like this. Yeah. 3 MR. THOMAS: And this area you called 4 Death Mile is, again, here somewhere (indicating); 5 is that right? 6 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yeah. But, really, you 7 guys, the Death Mile is pretty insignificant because 8 you can go here and make a Death Mile, you can go 9 here and make a Death Mile and you can go here and 10 make a Death Mile (indicating). 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: This whole area was -- 12 (Interruption by the reporter.) 13 MR. TOM BAILIE: The Death Miles, as the 14 length of each period runs on, you can find them in 15 different areas. Not up in this area so much, this 16 is farther away, but closer to the reservation, 17 there's beginning to be more old women putting 18 thumbtacks up, like Mrs. Annerjeski (phonetic) did, 19 and keeping track of who died from what, because the 20 fact is it isn't an ongoing generational connection. 21 These people are all saying, "Well, 22 so-and-so died, and he was in the Marines and he 23 came here the same time I did." So they're curious. 24 It stops. Everybody showed up at one time. Boom. 25 MR. THOMAS: Okay. One last question. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 My understanding is there was an area which -- where 2 there was some sort of environmental studies being 3 carried out, an area called the Ringold (phonetic) 4 farm? Have I got that correct? 5 MR. TOM BAILIE: Yes. Ringold was out 6 here (indicating). This is Ringold. The Death Mile 7 is right here. All the data on the contamination, 8 the ability to contaminate Communist crops, is 9 collected through a series of land grants from 10 universities where they had experimental farms -- 11 (Interruption by the reporter.) 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Hold on for a second. 13 Hold on. Let's let her catch up. And then we're 14 going to move on in a moment, but I want to just get 15 this last point on the record. 16 MR. TOM BAILIE: The Ringold farm grew 17 irrigated vegetables from a well when there was no 18 irrigation water available. The Prosser 19 experimentation -- experiment station, the Ringold 20 (indicating). You've seen documents about the 21 contaminated fruit, the radioactive fruit and 22 whatnot? That was right here. 23 We used to sneak down there and steal 24 the fruit and eat it, until one day an airplane 25 stopped and arrested us all. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. THOMAS: Were these privately-owned 2 farms which were used for this purpose or -- 3 MR. TOM BAILIE: No, they were 4 government-owned. 5 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. 7 MR. AL CONKLIN: Could I have one point? 8 This is Al Conklin here. 9 Just on -- 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah. 11 MR. AL CONKLIN: -- Sam Milham's work, 12 I'm not sure, Tom, do you remember what year he did 13 that? That's quite awhile ago. 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: In '85. 15 MR. AL CONKLIN: '85. Okay. I'm trying 16 to remember that report. I'm not an epidemiologist, 17 nor would I even pretend to be, but as I recall, the 18 study that he did, it was not a full-blown 19 epidemiologic study by any means, and I believe it 20 was based in large part on anecdotal information. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Good. 22 MR. AL CONKLIN: So I just wanted to add 23 that point -- 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 25 MR. AL CONKLIN: -- it was not a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 full-blown study. That's why I was reporting it as 2 his opinion rather than as a department opinion. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Understood. Thank 4 you for that precision. 5 Thank you both. You've been very 6 helpful. Tom, you've been very helpful. Let me 7 just say this before our last speaker before the 8 lunch break comes up, thank you both. You've been 9 just marvelous and I appreciate -- Let me just say 10 to you both that I'm very aware that -- we all up 11 here are aware that it was hard for you to come up 12 and do this, and I just want you to know that it 13 makes -- obviously it made a difference. Look at 14 what -- You've responded to a lot of inquiry and 15 helped us to understand this a lot better, so I just 16 hope you feel good about yourselves when you go 17 home. Thank you very much. 18 Oh, and please -- Oh, yes, please? 19 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I just want to make 20 one comment real quick. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, you're 22 important to us. Go right ahead. 23 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I just wanted to 24 make one comment real quick. I think it might be 25 helpful to know, as each one of the -- as we call NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 victims to come up to tell their story and you're 2 talking about studies, I think it would be nice to 3 know -- for each one of us to know whether we've 4 been studied or not. I have not, my daughter has 5 not. I've not been in any type of study. I think 6 most of the victims have not even been studied or 7 included in any type of study. We'd like to be. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just say 9 again, as you have further conversations -- One of 10 the things we're learning is, as we do these 11 hearings, we serve as an opportunity to connect 12 people who have similar concerns together, and then 13 they have their own conversations and then come 14 back. Mr. Geof Sea will definitely be coming up as 15 somebody that we know kind of does a lot of that 16 sort of thing. 17 What I would say to you is that both 18 sides of your statement are important. First, 19 whether you have been studied is important for us to 20 know. What's also important is that you -- if you 21 have not been studied. There are implications of 22 that word "study" which are very subtle and very 23 important, so that whether you have been followed up 24 with, whether somebody's actually come to follow up 25 with you -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: I haven't had no 2 contact. This is my first contact today. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- that's an 4 important issue on one hand. If you had been 5 followed up, that has another set of implications 6 that are important to us. So both sides of that 7 equation are important. Thank you so much. 8 MRS. BRENDA WEAVER: Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just say to 10 the audience and everyone else that that last 11 exchange was obviously -- and the thing -- the 12 cameras turned their lights on and it generates a 13 great deal of momentary enthusiasm, and I don't know 14 how it gets reported back by the various media 15 people; but, you know, this commission is still in 16 the process of trying to learn and to understand and 17 we certainly, by today's events, cannot draw a 18 conclusion today about what any of this means and so 19 forth and so on. 20 So I just want you to know in the 21 audience that this just opens up for us more 22 responsibility to do even more homework and more 23 investigation, but that we should not draw any 24 conclusions from what just happened as being, you 25 know, able to in fact draw conclusions. It just NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 means we have more homework to do, and I just want 2 to give that cautionary note as we go forward. This 3 is an appropriate time for caution and more 4 homework. 5 I will say this, though, we are -- 6 Mr. Conklin, we are going to try and see if our 7 staff folks can get on the phone, you know, and just 8 talk to somebody in the health department, if you 9 could be of help to recommend to them later on a 10 phone number or a name of somebody. 11 I doubt that we're going to get an 12 official answer from anybody in the state health 13 department today, but on the other hand, to the 14 degree that there would be people that may ask the 15 State health department any hard questions about, 16 you know, what do they know, if they'd share it with 17 us, it would be nice for us before we go home. 18 Doesn't matter one way or the other, we'll find out 19 what's going on. 20 Well, our friend and former -- testified 21 before, we welcome you again, Mr. Sea. Sea? See? 22 I always do this. 23 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Sea. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you, Mr. Sea. 25 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: This time it's at NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 your invitation. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Good. Yes. 3 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: My name is Geoffrey 4 Sea. By this time, you've learned I wear a number 5 of different hats. I'm a health physicist. I 6 currently work for Leiss, Cabraser & Heimann, which 7 is a law firm in San Francisco handling two class 8 action suits on behalf of experiment survivors. 9 I'm the director of the Atomic 10 Reclamation and Conversion Project of the TIDES 11 Foundation, and one of the things we work on is 12 organizing radiation survivors around the world 13 through IRIS, which stands for International 14 Radiation Injury Survivors; and I'm a member of the 15 Task Force on Radiation and Human Rights, which 16 represents experiment survivors nationally. 17 I was invited by Stephen Klaidman to 18 speak here today about the government's autopsy and 19 tissue collection programs in relation to radiation 20 workers, a program that is come to be known 21 colloquially as the "Body Snatching Program." I 22 know about this program principally through my prior 23 employment with the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers 24 Union at Piketon, Ohio, and the Fernald Atomic 25 Trades and the Labor Council of the Fernald plant in NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Ohio. My employment there for the unions was 2 between 1980 and 1985, so most of what I know 3 directly about these programs relates to that period 4 and earlier. 5 First a bit about the history of the 6 program, which has three points of historical 7 origin. In the beginning, let me say that the 8 program, when it started in the forties and fifties, 9 had legitimate aims and represented sound and 10 ethical science, and the story behind the collection 11 programs is probably a little bit different than 12 most of the other situations you're looking at 13 because, ethically speaking, it actually kind of 14 moves downhill; the programs get more suspect as 15 time goes on. 16 The programs really started in 1949 when 17 scientists at Hanford began collecting and analyzing 18 tissues from workers with known exposures to 19 plutonium, so as to test models of plutonium 20 metabolism and dosimetry. Then the center of 21 activity moved to Oak Ridge in the early fifties, 22 where Karl Morgan was the Director of the Health 23 Physics Department there and became Chairman of the 24 Internal Dosimetry Committee of the ICRP. 25 I spoke with Dr. Morgan yesterday and he NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 gave me a lot of interesting insight into the 2 history of what's happened here. He said that in 3 the early fifties he went to the books to try to 4 find information when they were trying to write the 5 maximum permissible organ limits and body burdens 6 for different isotopes based on where they were 7 concentrated in the body. When he went to the 8 books, he found out that the data didn't exist for 9 many, many isotopes, especially the new ones that 10 were just being discovered. 11 So he began, as part of the Oak Ridge 12 system, a program for collecting tissue samples from 13 around the country; and an assistant of his named 14 Mary Jane Cook actually went around the country 15 collecting tissues and organs from different 16 laboratories and different facilities around the 17 country; and this data that was put together in Oak 18 Ridge actually did become the basis for the current 19 standards on maximum permissible organ levels. 20 Then in the late fifties, things began 21 to go sour; and they begin to go sour because -- and 22 this is my own analysis -- because of the intense 23 concern about the fallout problem. As the fallout 24 problem becomes public, there is panic both 25 politically and publicly about radio iodine and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 radio strontium in milk and other issues. 2 This panic is reflected within the 3 Atomic Energy Commission establishment, and very 4 quickly and, I would argue, very haphazardly organ 5 and tissue sample collection programs are initiated, 6 principally at Los Alamos Laboratory and Lovelace 7 Clinic in New Mexico, which has a more or less -- 8 more or less an official connection with Los Alamos. 9 And to give you some idea of what is 10 going on there during this period, in the late 11 fifties a worker at the Kansas City plant in Kansas 12 City is involved in a radiation accident. I 13 testified about this before so I'll run through this 14 quickly. Her name was Dotte Troxell. She was 15 involved in an exposure to a cobalt 60 source and 16 got acute radiation sickness and was essentially 17 duped into going to Los Alamos for treatment -- 18 excuse me -- going to Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque 19 for treatment. 20 There she was told that she needed a 21 splenectomy, not for radiation but for what she was 22 told was a hormonal problem. She agreed to the 23 splenectomy, came out of the operation and had a 24 scar running the length of her body from her neck to 25 the bottom of her torso; and she asked what was done NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 to her and was told that they couldn't tell her for 2 national security reasons. 3 Dotte was convinced throughout her life 4 that what actually happened was that they took 5 tissue biopsies from her because she had been 6 exposed to a calibration source. She was the 7 perfect -- and they expected that she was going to 8 die -- she was the perfect human guinea pig for 9 establishing what the effects of particular dose 10 levels were on different tissues. 11 The next important event was the SL-1 12 disaster at the Idaho Falls plant in the early 13 sixties where three workers were killed, two 14 immediately and one a lingering death, from a 15 meltdown at a military research reactor in Idaho. 16 And the workers' bodies were grossly contaminated, 17 and there was massive unpreparedness to deal with 18 this situation. 19 Two of the bodies had to be actually 20 removed from the machinery, one of them had been 21 impaled by a control rod shooting out of the 22 reactor; and it was the local fire department that 23 wound up taking these bodies -- removing them from 24 the reactor and bringing them to the local hospital. 25 In the course of removing the bodies, transporting NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 them and trying to treat the one worker who was 2 still alive, hundreds of people were grossly 3 contaminated. 4 The bodies themselves were then taken to 5 Los Alamos where they were given autopsies by 6 Clarence Lushbaugh. There are actually films of 7 this. They had to invent special autopsy tools so 8 that they could be autopsied from about ten feet 9 away by remote scalpels and other instruments. The 10 bodies were so contaminated that they then had to be 11 cut up into small pieces, put into lead-lined boxes, 12 and they were buried in Arlington Cemetery in a 13 lead-lined coffin. 14 This was important to the whole program 15 because after this, the government realized that 16 that special authority was needed to take possession 17 of bodies and organs that contained nuclear 18 material. And we have never succeeded in getting 19 what we believe to be classified regulations or laws 20 that were passed at the time, but we do know that 21 the government at that time, in some manner, 22 instituted procedures where they could in such 23 cases; and there was some good intent here to 24 prevent the kind of contamination, the kind of 25 secondary contamination, that happened in Idaho NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Falls. 2 But, as I will describe, whatever the 3 authorization was that gave the government the kind 4 of blanket ability to take control of contaminated 5 tissues has been grossly misused since that time. 6 In the sixties, the contractors at the 7 various DOE sites, then AEC sites, really took over 8 the game, and using Fernald as kind of a case 9 example -- I think it's the best one -- each of the 10 contractors begins to do very detailed research on 11 the isotopes that are of importance. For Fernald, 12 it's uranium and thorium. 13 The Union there, in the early eighties, 14 consistently was requesting of the management, which 15 was National Lead of Ohio, that they turn over 16 information about everything they knew about uranium 17 and thorium hazards; and they were repeatedly told 18 by the company that the company had done no 19 research, had no information. 20 Finally, after an enormous public 21 outcry, the Union finally succeeded in getting a 22 sheath of studies that NLO had done, internal 23 studies, on uranium and thorium, including one study 24 which describes in detail the company's own internal 25 procedure for getting tissue samples by going to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 local coroners at hospitals. And, essentially, they 2 had agreements with coroners at all the local 3 hospitals that whenever a Fernald worker would die, 4 the organs would be given to NLO, to the contractor, 5 without consent or even knowledge of the families 6 involved. 7 I'm now going to run through a number of 8 individual cases that we know of that show what some 9 of the problems have been. At Fernald, there was 10 the Luther Han case. This was the worker who died 11 of fibrosis, lung fibrosis, on a Saturday night -- 12 he had already filed a Worker's Compensation claim 13 -- and by Sunday morning, by early Sunday morning, 14 his physicians had already received a call from 15 Hanford asking that the worker's body be turned over 16 to the government. This was refused and resulted, 17 due to the intervention of one physician, resulted 18 in a public case and our discovery of, basically, 19 this program. 20 Bertha Edwards was the widow of another 21 Fernald worker named Ray, who died of lung cancer -- 22 this is also in the early eighties -- and agreed to 23 an autopsy done by the government; got the autopsy 24 report back, and the autopsy report described a 25 worker's body which was clearly not her husband. It NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 described a bald man who was something like 2 100 pounds different in weight than her husband had 3 been, with different distinguishing characteristics. 4 She had a trauma Worker's Compensation claim because 5 of this clearly wrong autopsy report. 6 Another Fernald worker who worked with 7 thorium, burning thorium openly outside the plant, 8 died of liver cancer, which is known to be 9 associated with thorium exposure. The liver was 10 sent, again without permission, to Oak Ridge for 11 analysis. The liver was analyzed for every isotope 12 one could think of, except thorium. It was analyzed 13 for uranium, plutonium, a number of other elements. 14 And when the family, who, again, had filed a lawsuit 15 over the death of their family member, asked for the 16 results, they were told that the liver had been 17 destroyed at Oak Ridge; and so there was no data on 18 which to proceed with a claim. 19 A very similar thing happened to a Rocky 20 Flats worker, Don Gabel, who worked next to a pipe 21 that he had to rest his head against that contained 22 radioactive material flowing through the pipe. He 23 died of a brain tumor. His lawyer had made 24 arrangements to have his brain independently 25 analyzed after his death. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Within one hour of the worker's death, 2 one hour, the widow at the hospital received a call 3 from Los Alamos asking her to authorize shipment of 4 the brain to Los Alamos. The widow thought that 5 because the call came right to the hospital that 6 this was the arrangement that her attorney had made. 7 Without checking with her attorney, she signed the 8 authorization form, the brain was sent to Los 9 Alamos. 10 She stipulated in the phone call and in 11 what she signed that she only agreed to it if the 12 brain was measured for plutonium. The brain was not 13 measured for plutonium. Like the liver that was 14 sent to Oak Ridge, it was destroyed and never 15 appeared again. 16 Now, there are four ethical problems 17 involved in these programs. I'll run through them 18 briefly. The first is that there's no informed 19 consent. Now, in some of these cases there are 20 consent forms signed, but there's indication that 21 they are signed as conditions of employment; and we 22 contend this does not constitute informed consent 23 because the workers are never informed that the 24 company will withhold this data or that the data may 25 in fact jeopardize their legal remedies through NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 compensation or through litigation. 2 The second problem is that that 3 information is not shared with the workers and 4 family members, and this is both on an individual 5 level and a collective level. Individually, the 6 workers whose organs and whose bodies are taken and 7 analyzed, that data is not given to the families, or 8 back to the worker in cases where there were biopsy 9 specimens taken. 10 Collectively, when there are studies 11 done on a work force, like these studies from NLO, 12 showing high levels of uranium contamination, the 13 work force collectively is not informed of the 14 results of those studies, as they should be. 15 The third problem is that there's 16 evidence there's improper surveillance going on. 17 How did Los Alamos Laboratory know to call 18 Don Edwards' widow within one hour of his death? 19 How did Hanford know to call Luther Han's family 20 over a Saturday night? What kind of surveillance is 21 being done of these workers and their families? You 22 know, it's like there are vultures hovering over 23 these workers waiting for them to die to get the 24 material. 25 And the fourth problem is the use and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 integrity of the data. Now, scientists who are 2 reporting on microscopic, microgram amounts of 3 radioactive material are right away suspect when 4 they start losing brains, losing livers and losing 5 entire cadavers. I don't think we're being overly 6 sensitive here in questioning the validity of the 7 science, and especially because a disturbing pattern 8 has emerged from the published results, as little as 9 they have been. 10 In cases where there has been no 11 dose/disease link established -- in other words, 12 where there is an open question as to whether there 13 is a relationship between the exposure and the 14 disease that the worker died from -- we invariably 15 see that the result of the autopsy or the tissue 16 analysis is that there is no level of radioisotope 17 discovered that is traceable to the facility in 18 question. 19 In other words, when they look at 20 Hanford workers and find plutonium, it's attributed 21 to fallout, not to the plant; or if it's uranium in 22 Fernald workers, it's attributed to natural levels. 23 There's no association reached in the studies. The 24 studies always conclude that there's less than 25 expected. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 But in other cases where there already 2 has been a clear link established between the dose 3 and the disease, and the best example here is the 4 Thorotrast patients, patients who were given 5 material that includes thorium, and where it's 6 already been established that there's a high rate of 7 liver cancer in these patients. In those cases, the 8 amount of material that's been analyzed turns out to 9 be greater than what was expected. 10 Now, why would this be? Well, because 11 if you already have established that there's a 12 causative link and you find a greater amount of 13 radioisotope present, then it lessens your 14 attribution of risk to a certain dose. In other 15 words, if you already know how many people have died 16 and then you find out that the exposure was greater 17 than you thought it was, then the risk per dose is 18 lessened; and so the fact that we see this clear 19 pattern emerging from these studies makes us 20 suspicious. 21 And then we have another reason to be 22 suspicious. The Director of Epidemiology at Los 23 Alamos during the eighties, Greg Wilkinson, resigned 24 over this issue because the studies that were being 25 done at Los Alamos, which showed both through tissue NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 analysis that there were high levels of plutonium in 2 workers' organs and that there was an excess of 3 brain cancer and other forms of cancer at the Rocky 4 Flats plant, and Wilkinson was the one finding these 5 results, this was thought to be detrimental to the 6 plant and he was instructed essentially to withhold 7 or fabricate this data, and resigned as a result. 8 That pretty much covers what I have to 9 say about the organ program. I do have to just put 10 in a few words today on behalf of the Task Force on 11 Radiation and Human Rights. The task force, as well 12 as eight law firms that have -- that represent 13 radiation experiment survivors, have all requested 14 of the White House that the composition of the 15 advisory committee be expanded. 16 There is no radiation experiment 17 survivor or family member on the advisory committee. 18 This is a violation of the Federal Advisory 19 Committee Act. The White House and the advisory 20 committee have been put on notice about this issue 21 since last spring, and no action has been taken on 22 it. 23 We are also concerned that of the four 24 radiation specialists on the committee, three are 25 radiologists. This is not broadly representative. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 It doesn't even begin to be representative of the 2 radiation protection community. There is no 3 oncologist, no hematologist, no health physicist, no 4 environmental or occupational health specialist on 5 the committee; only radiologists and one radiation 6 biologist. 7 The radiologists are people who, for 8 their living, expose people to radiation; and the 9 American College of Radiology, which they are 10 members of, has a longstanding policy of advocating 11 the use of radiation and protecting radiologists 12 against medical legal suits. 13 This is not adequate, and we have now 14 been put on notice that the White House does not 15 intend to expand the advisory committee. By failing 16 to respond positively to the task force and the 17 attorneys' concerns and failing to respond at all -- 18 we have not gotten any official response to date -- 19 the government is adding mass insult to mass injury. 20 The community of experiment survivors, 21 and we're talking about hundreds of thousands of 22 people, is a hurt community, hurt physically by the 23 experimentation and hurt emotionally by the betrayal 24 by their own government. The advisory committee 25 should have been the first step towards healing, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 toward a rapprochement of this government with its 2 people. 3 Instead, the advisory committee seems to 4 be stepping toward an aggravation of grievances, a 5 continuation of the cover-up and an addiction to 6 denial. Experiments were perpetrated by boys in the 7 back room who had discovered, in the words of 8 Dr. Suess -- I think I'm the first person to quote 9 Dr. Suess before the advisory committee -- "they had 10 discovered a machine so modern, so frightfully new, 11 no one knew quite exactly just what it would do." 12 Now we find some of those same old boys are on the 13 review committee. 14 You can't tell the people who have just 15 learned that they were the real nuclear targets of 16 the Cold War that what was done to them was okay 17 because it was the standard practice of the day, as 18 a number of advisory committee members have said in 19 recent meetings; and you can't tell them that they 20 have no right to representation on the panel that 21 would render such an abhorrent judgment. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for your 24 comments. 25 (Applause from audience.) NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me -- first of 2 all, before we get to the substantive issues -- and 3 I know that lunch is waiting, but we have a lot of 4 important information here -- I do feel that first, 5 that for the audience, I want you to understand a 6 couple of the implications in the statement that was 7 just made. 8 Number one, this advisory committee is 9 not in a position to affect the decision from the 10 White House about adding another member. We have 11 made our opinion expressed to the White House. We 12 don't have that authority. It would be 13 inappropriate for members of the audience to leave 14 with the sense that we are in opposition to adding a 15 person from the survivors' community. That would be 16 inappropriate and unfair, and I don't know whether 17 or not it is implied by the statement that Geoffrey 18 made, but it is not true, whether he meant to imply 19 it or not. And for the -- 20 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: I -- 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- for the rest of 22 the people on this committee, I want it to be -- 23 because I'm right now representing a lot of people 24 whom I happen to care a lot about who aren't here 25 right now, and I'll be darned if I'm going to leave NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 anyone with a misperception. The White House -- We 2 are charged by the White House. Period. And we 3 come to be on this committee through that process. 4 We didn't create ourselves. We can't recreate 5 ourselves. We are dealing with the hand we were 6 dealt and we're doing it the best we can. 7 As far as the comments that were made 8 regarding the supposition of bias on the part of 9 members of the committee, there's nothing I can say 10 to that other than to simply say we have not, as a 11 committee in any way, shape or form reached any 12 conclusions. All I can say to the people in the 13 audience who have come so far and have listened and 14 have participated in the process is that everything 15 that we do, every conclusion that we will make, and 16 the process by which we make it, is a matter of 17 public record. 18 Every discussion, every debate, every 19 deliberation is a matter of public record. You will 20 see where we got to and how we got there; and if you 21 disagree with it at the end, then you disagree with 22 it at the end. But I would hope that no one would 23 at this early stage decide that we have already done 24 something wrong, when we haven't done anything; and 25 we will continue to be open. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 So to those people that will share their 2 information with us this afternoon, you are part of 3 the process of getting us to where we need to be; 4 and I just want that to be very clear to those who 5 are not here. 6 Now, regarding specific questions, the 7 information that has been presented, Mr. Sea, help 8 me understand. I don't know whether it's possible 9 to know this, but, for example, the person -- this 10 is the second time we've heard about the person who 11 woke up after the biopsy to find this scar, which 12 implies, I think is meant to imply, there were 13 multiple biopsy sites. 14 Do you think it's possible we'll ever be 15 able to go -- If in fact that was done, you would 16 also think the information was then somehow used in 17 some sort of way, somebody did it for some reason 18 and then it somehow got introduced into some 19 conversation someplace. Is it theoretically 20 possible to ever go back and find out -- I mean if 21 you went to all that trouble, if you were the people 22 that went to all that doggone trouble, they must 23 have done it for some reason. Is it discoverable, 24 what that might have been about? 25 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: It should be. I NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 don't think it's discoverable without subpoena 2 power, and that's an issue that's been raised 3 informally. When the advisory committee was 4 established, we had hoped that it would have some 5 kind of subpoena power. I personally think that 6 without that, an investigation of this type, because 7 of this kind of case where we're dealing with a very 8 discreet individual case where those who were 9 involved would today be found guilty of criminal 10 activity if it were discovered that this actually 11 occurred, if it were verified, with a situation like 12 that, I think to go after the information without 13 subpoena power might actually result in -- 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So, in other words -- 15 That's a very, very important comment you just made. 16 I mean I guess it would be difficult then to go back 17 and -- Let's say that a memorandum from on high, 18 within the industry plant, says, "Based on 19 information obtained from so-and-so, we need to 20 alter X, Y, Z, because --" In other words, is it 21 even theoretically possible that regulation, rules, 22 conduct, behavior, policies and procedures within 23 the plants would have been affected by the material 24 information they were learning from such ways, 25 correspondence between the medical director and the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 plant administrator? I'm just -- 2 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: I don't think so. I 3 don't think that this -- I don't think that that 4 kind of information was being used, for example, in 5 the same way that Karl Morgan's information was 6 being used as a basis for setting standards. I 7 think they were more interested in -- Well, 8 Lovelace in particular, where this was done, their 9 specialty was in treating radiation injuries, and 10 they had contracts with both the Atomic Energy 11 Commission and with NASA, which was very interested 12 in protecting its astronauts. John Glenn and the 13 other -- what was that program that Glenn was part 14 of? 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah, that one. 16 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Those astronauts were 17 sent to Lovelace for examination before and after 18 their flights. They were looking -- they were 19 testing drugs and the effect that different 20 medications had on the course of radiation injury. 21 They were looking at a cellular level at the kinds 22 of damage produced by radiation. Those are the 23 things that Lovelace was interested in. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah. I think one 25 other thing is that, which I found very compelling -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 first, I want to thank you for your analysis and the 2 thoroughness with which you approached your task -- 3 is the epidemiologist that you just mentioned, the 4 Los Alamos -- 5 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- who may be 7 disgruntled or concerned, left with some concern, is 8 that somebody that -- do we know about this person? 9 MR. ROYAL: Yes. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. So we've 11 been in touch with him then. 12 MR. KLAIDMAN: Haven't been in touch 13 with Greg Wilkinson to my knowledge. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is this somebody we 15 ought to be in touch with? 16 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: I think so. I've 17 never spoken with him personally. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So the impressions 19 that you cite in your comments were -- where did you 20 get that? 21 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Actually, that was 22 from 60 Minutes. He appeared on 60 Minutes, which 23 covered this issue in 1991. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So it sounds like 25 maybe somebody we need to -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. THOMAS: I know this person very 2 well. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Oh. Great. Well, 4 then we have a direct link. That's great. 5 Any other questions before we break for 6 lunch? I mean you've been so compelling, I want to 7 make sure we get everything from you. 8 MR. ROYAL: Given that the results of 9 the autopsies were being used in Workmen's 10 Compensation cases, I would have thought that there 11 would have been some effort to verify the results of 12 the autopsies which were being done by the 13 government, who obviously was not a disinterested 14 party. 15 Did the unions attempt to do their own 16 independent autopsies? If yes, what were the 17 results? If no, why didn't they attempt to get some 18 independent verification of the results? 19 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Well, in numerous 20 cases, unions did do independent analysis, and there 21 were problems with those cases. One of those cases, 22 a very famous one, the Joe Harding case, is, I 23 think, still in court after many, many years. 24 The problems come in where the 25 government beat the unions or the personal NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 physicians or attorneys to the punch. They were in 2 there, they were in the hospital when the worker 3 died and, under duress, getting consent forms signed 4 after misleading the families. 5 That's clearly what happened in the 6 Gabel case. The attorney had made independent 7 arrangements to have the brain analyzed. The worker 8 died and the government came in and misinformed the 9 widow, got her to sign a consent form, took the 10 brain, brought it back to Los Alamos and destroyed 11 it. 12 MR. ROYAL: Now, the Gabel case was the 13 case where the man was resting his head on the pipe. 14 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Yes. 15 MR. ROYAL: I didn't understand the 16 entire logic because you were talking about 17 measuring plutonium in the brain and you were 18 talking about this pipe going by with radioactive 19 material in it; and plutonium is an alpha-emitter 20 and all that stuff. I don't understand why 21 measuring -- I guess I'm confused about whether the 22 pipe was supposed to be causing the brain cancer or 23 whether it was an ingestion of plutonium. 24 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: We don't know. 25 That's why the -- There are no tests, or at least NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 there weren't in the eighties, to determine doses 2 received from gamma exposure, which would be the 3 head resting against the pipe. There's essentially 4 no evidence available that would prove that one way 5 or the other. 6 The only evidence that might have been 7 available was if plutonium was discovered in the 8 brain, that could have been a contributing cause. I 9 mean if there was gamma radiation from a pipe and 10 there was also a high level of plutonium in the 11 brain, for which there may have been producible 12 evidence, that would certainly be very crucial to 13 prove in the case; and apparently the lawyer for the 14 widow was not the only one who thought so. 15 MR. ROYAL: What was the evidence that 16 there was a reason for concern? For example, there 17 must be something known about what the dose rates 18 were from that pipe, and was the worker exposed in 19 some unusual way to the plutonium. Why -- why 20 wasn't it suspected that the brain tumor was related 21 to his occupational exposure? 22 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Well, as you probably 23 know, proving causation in Worker's Compensation 24 cases involving radiation has been a big, big 25 problem for a whole variety of reasons; and that's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 why, in my experience, we often rely on, you know, 2 on that part of the situation for which we can 3 produce some physical evidence. And it may not be 4 the -- it may not be the actual -- 5 MR. ROYAL: But wait a minute. You're 6 making it sound like the absence of the brain is the 7 only physical evidence that would be available. But 8 if someone ingested plutonium, it would be in other 9 parts of his body besides the brain, and presumably 10 dose rates could be measured from this pipe and 11 there would be substances -- 12 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: The rest of the body 13 was sent to the Transuranic Registry here at 14 Hanford, and I don't know if the rest of the body 15 was measured for plutonium and what those results 16 were and if they were shared with the widow or not. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Geoffrey, help us 18 with a couple quick more questions, even though 19 we're well beyond the time, but I want Susan to get 20 a few in. 21 MS. LEDERER: Please help me to 22 understand just who in the government you feel is 23 responsible, for example, in the Gabel case. You 24 said "the government moved quickly" to do this. I 25 mean, you know, the government is many people. Who NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 in the government do you feel is responsible? 2 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Well, I feel the 3 people at Los Alamos, in that particular case, are 4 clearly responsible, is clearly -- 5 MS. LEDERER: Is there a particular 6 department at Los Alamos? 7 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Well, there is a 8 department -- I don't know the name of it -- that is 9 responsible for their tissue sampling program. 10 There are clearly problems in that program at Los 11 Alamos and Oak Ridge, which have been the two 12 biggest tissue sampling programs in the country, and 13 we've had major problems at both those locations. 14 The other program is the autopsy program 15 run by the Transuranic Registry here in Washington, 16 and we can't say we've had big problems with them. 17 The Transuranic Registry, unlike the programs run by 18 individual contractors, at least does have clear 19 consent forms signed. Now, I'm not saying those are 20 adequate, but at least they have gone by that 21 procedure and stuck to it, and at least some of 22 their results have been published and are available. 23 Now, I asked Karl Morgan what he thought 24 of all the data. I asked him, "Has there been a 25 reflection in the regulations, based on all the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 tissue sampling and autopsy programs now, as there 2 was back in the fifties when you were doing your 3 program and that was being reflected in the 4 regulations?" And he responded by saying, this is a 5 direct quote, he said, "Absolutely none." In other 6 words, he's seen absolutely no reflection in the 7 health protection regulations of the current data 8 that's being accumulated by all these agencies. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Geof -- 10 MS. LEDERER: So is it your inference 11 that whereas once it had a reasonable purpose, to 12 establish safety standards, it now has a more 13 nefarious purpose, to prevent workers and their 14 families from gaining compensation? 15 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: That is exactly 16 right. It has become a program for acquiring and 17 sequestering evidence and keeping it from the people 18 who need it to prove their claims. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Now, given that this 20 is the second time now that we're really starting to 21 hear more and more about this -- First of all, are 22 we going to hear from the person that runs this 23 program? 24 MR. KLAIDMAN: At Hanford. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So tomorrow we will NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 be going to have a chance to ask some questions. It 2 might be useful, just to make sure that we 3 understand, you know, after we finish and when you 4 talk with staff again this afternoon, that we make 5 sure we understand all the questions that we ought 6 to be raising, such that we use our time well from 7 your point of view. I would urge you to suggest 8 some appropriate questions that would help us to 9 target in on the concerns. 10 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: I think there's been 11 a lot of focus on the uranium and transuranic 12 registries here in Washington because they're the 13 most public, and actually the biggest problems with 14 the program have been in those programs run by 15 individual contractors and, separately, with the 16 programs run out of Los Alamos and Oak Ridge. 17 So I think the Transuranic Registry 18 probably has taken some unfair blame for some of the 19 problems existing in the other programs, although 20 they tell us they do also -- I don't want to 21 completely exonerate them because they do still have 22 this problem with the use of the data. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I would just hope, 24 again, that the specificity with which you can help 25 staff to look at -- I mean this notion about the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 government -- and I understand, you know, you're 2 trying to get at the bottom of this as well -- so 3 this notion that the government called in one hour 4 after death and so forth and so on, it is extremely 5 important, and I think incumbent upon us, that we 6 begin to better understand what in fact government 7 is doing either directly or indirectly, if in fact 8 government is doing it. 9 That's our charge, is to begin to be 10 understanding that. And since this is now the -- I 11 will say this, at our last full committee meeting, 12 this point got a lot of attention when we reported 13 in on the results of our Cincinnati hearings, which 14 you participated in. In fact, you've got a world 15 record with us; this is the third time you presented 16 it. But when this point was brought up in our 17 sharing with the other members of the committee, 18 there was great interest in trying to understand 19 this more. 20 So I would say to you that you've got 21 our attention, and the question is that we're going 22 to have to really try to bring this one -- we're 23 going to have to try to really make sure we 24 understand what we're talking about here quickly, 25 and do some homework. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Just one suggestion. 2 If I were in your shoes and I had to say one thing 3 to the people who run the Transuranic Registry, it 4 would be, "Have you taken the results from each one 5 of your tissue analyses or autopsies and sent them 6 to the families?" 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Good. 8 MR. GEOFFREY SEA: Because I can tell 9 you they haven't, and they need to. That should be 10 a requirement. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Geoffrey, we'll also 12 find out if they have and what they view as the 13 constraints. Stay connected to us. It will be 14 interesting to see what your reaction is of people. 15 If not, why not, because -- this can be an area we 16 just put on the record right now -- I think we're 17 going to solicit people like you, your advice on as 18 to whether or not the reasons for doing -- if in 19 fact they have not, whether those reasons are 20 justifiable; and I think you may be able to better 21 help us understand that side as well, so we see you 22 as being very valuable to us through the duration of 23 this commission. 24 Let me just ask for those who are going 25 to be in our group after lunch -- Mrs. Jacobovitch, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Mrs. Potts, Mr. Cooper, Ms. Sutherland, Mrs. Aleck 2 and Ms. Lozon -- would you be very angry with us if 3 we didn't start until 2:00? Will you miss some 4 major appointment? Any of you have a compelling 5 reason why we couldn't start at two? 6 (No response.) 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Then with that 8 indulgence, you think that's all right? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Then thank you for 11 that, 'cause actually I think we really do need to 12 take enough break to clear our minds and be ready to 13 focus, so we'll -- 14 MR. TOM BAILIE: One note. When you're 15 looking at Hanford, look at the Hanford 16 Environmental Health Foundation. They are our "Body 17 Snatchers" in our region. Okay? 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Do this for me, Tom, 19 because we don't want -- No, no, that's fine; just 20 get with staff so that we really understand. We 21 want to know what we're talking about when we go out 22 there, 'cause we'll do it right when we go out 23 there. 24 See you at 2:00 sharp. 25 (Lunch recess taken from 1:15 to 2:10.) NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 Time: 2:10 p.m. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. Well, 4 we're going to resume, and thank you for your 5 patience. Let me say to those that are in the cue 6 lining up, because we are starting a little late we 7 are going to -- we can go a little late. I mean 8 there's no reason why we have to, you know, 9 shortchange any person here. So whatever we have to 10 do, we'll do it. So I want everyone in the audience 11 who's been patient and waiting to know that you'll 12 get your fair turn and your fair time and you'll get 13 your fair portion of our attention. 14 With that, let me ask -- The order that 15 we're going to go through now, with a little bit of 16 modification, is Mrs. Kathy Jacobovitch, and then 17 Mrs. JoAnne Watts, and then Mrs. Theresa Potts and 18 Tom Cooper, Mrs. Kay Sutherland, Mrs. Bev Aleck, and 19 maybe -- and Mrs. Sherri Lozon. 20 Now, Kris was going to try to see if 21 maybe one of the people in that group that I listed, 22 if they could go to the second group of the 23 afternoon, that would help us. If not, we'll do all 24 those people all at once; but if one person's 25 willing to go down to after the break, we would sure NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 appreciate it. 2 Kristin -- Again, if anybody else has 3 not signed up and wants to sign up, Kristin is in 4 the back wearing the lovely black ensemble. We 5 always tease her about what she wears. 6 Mrs. Kathy Jacobovitch, please. Good 7 afternoon. 8 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: Hi. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for joining 10 us. 11 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: You're welcome. 12 Start now? 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes, please. 14 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: First, I'd like 15 to thank you and President Clinton for the 16 opportunity to be here. 17 Ten years ago, my dad, James Robert Peden 18 (phonetic), died of lung canner. The cancer was so 19 bad when he was first checked, it filled his lungs 20 and heart cavity and heart. He still lived almost 21 two years. He was a fighter. On my last visit with 22 dad, he talked with me about working at the 23 Bremerton Naval Shipyard after he was discharged 24 from the Navy. 25 He told me he worked aboard the target NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 ships. His job was to decontaminate them. He told 2 me that many times at the end of the workday, he was 3 so "hot" that he would have to shower up to three 4 times before they would let him go home. On that 5 same visit, dad told me his doctor had told him to 6 investigate his radiation exposure. The doctor felt 7 his cancer was caused by that radiation. Dad was 8 too consumed by the cancer and soon died. 9 Shortly after dad's death, mom told me 10 to look into his radiation exposure for him. 11 Because of my grief and because I thought you can't 12 fight City Hall, I didn't; but now because of 13 President Clinton and your commission, I at least 14 have the opportunity. 15 What I have found so far is this: He 16 was exposed to radiation and he was tested. My dad 17 served his country in World War II between August 12, 18 1942, and December 26, 1945. He served aboard the 19 USS Maryland. After the war, he went to work at the 20 Bremerton Naval Shipyard. From April 4th, 1947, 21 through November 11th, 1947, he was assigned to work 22 aboard three US Navy target ships, one of which was 23 the USS Pensacola. 24 His medical records show he was exposed 25 to 135 hours of radiation during the six months he NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 worked on the US Navy target ships. As I looked 2 into the medical records from the Bremerton navy 3 shipyard, I noticed that while dad was coming home 4 "hot," mom was pregnant with me. 5 I was born July 19th, 1947. I first 6 thought I was conceived during this time, but with 7 dad starting in April of '47, that puts me in the 8 last four months of the term. Dad still worked and 9 was exposed for four more months after I was born. 10 I feel I was exposed to radiation during that time, 11 also. 12 I feel that the radiation that I was 13 exposed to has contributed to my lack of health 14 starting back when I was a teenager with my first 15 bout with swollen joints and extreme fatigue. I've 16 had three attacks since that time, one of which I've 17 been going through for at least 2-1/2 years. I was 18 diagnosed with lupus last spring. Lupus is an 19 autoimmune disorder. 20 To close, I'd just like to say that I 21 feel the radiation that dad was exposed to 22 contributed to his cancer and his early death and to 23 my own struggle with a disease that has just now 24 been labeled lupus. And to all the men and women 25 just doing their duty serving their country so that NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 I have the freedom to be here today, and to all the 2 innocents who just didn't know, I stand here today 3 before you to say, yes, we were experimented on and, 4 yes, we do suffer because of it. 5 Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Any 7 questions from the committee? 8 MR. ROYAL: Could you tell us about your 9 experiences getting your father's medical records? 10 You indicated that he was exposed to 135 hours of 11 radiation. Could you tell us what that process was 12 like, getting your father's medical records, what 13 difficulties you ran into? 14 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: Actually, I 15 don't feel that I've had any difficulty getting 16 those. I just submitted to the Civilian Records 17 Administration, someplace in St. Louis I believe it 18 was, I submitted all the correct copies that I 19 needed, death certificates, birth certificate, his 20 military discharge, and asked under the Freedom Of 21 Information Act that they give me these, and they 22 sent these to me. 23 MR. ROYAL: When was that request made 24 and how long did it take for it to be fulfilled? 25 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: I don't NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 remember at this moment. I didn't take that as any 2 kind of notes. I could answer that and submit it to 3 you. 4 MR. ROYAL: Just roughly. 5 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: It probably 6 took me, oh, four months, I guess, to get the -- 7 MR. ROYAL: It was within the last 8 couple of years that you made the request? 9 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: I started all 10 of this around a year ago when an article came out 11 in the Bremerton Sun -- that article I have with me 12 -- and it was talking about the fact that there was 13 an Operation Crossroads and that these men, 400 of 14 them that they found so far, have died around the 15 age of 57; and the article also talked about the men 16 exposed to radiation at the shipyard. 17 Most of them didn't -- one person, 18 Bob Metcalf, said that most of the guys didn't 19 realize what they were up against. My dad, you 20 know, he got out of the Navy and he had mom and he 21 just needed another job, and he just -- that's where 22 he was, he was in Bremerton, and that job was 23 available, so he'd take it. 24 MR. THOMAS: I wonder if I could get you 25 to elaborate on your final sentence in your NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 statement where you talk about, "Yes, we were 2 experimented on." It's quite clear your father was 3 occupationally exposed to radiation in the course of 4 his job. 5 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: Yes. 6 MR. THOMAS: Is this the experiment 7 you're referring to or were there additional 8 procedures which make it experimental as opposed to 9 sort of an occupational exposure? 10 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: I just felt 11 that when I received his medical papers, his papers 12 were all marked with -- let me read this -- 13 "Received and processed in Atomic Defense Division;" 14 it says, "2PQNMR for file in jacket." I don't know 15 what that means, but that one stamp -- He -- 16 Monthly, he had blood tests, he had neuro tests, he 17 had x-rays. They checked him for signs of any kind 18 of skin cancer, anything that would be happening to 19 him at that time, and -- 20 MR. THOMAS: Excuse me, where was he 21 getting his medical care? Was that from V.A. 22 hospitals or was that in some other city? 23 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: I'm not sure. 24 The papers are US Navy papers. I don't know where 25 he was -- Wait a minute. When was he getting his NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 care for what? 2 MR. THOMAS: Well, on these particular 3 physical examination reports that you provided to us 4 that are stamped with the statement about the Atomic 5 Defense Commission, where were those taken? 6 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: As far as I 7 know, those two places were right at the Bremerton 8 Naval Shipyard. 9 MR. THOMAS: One of the things we're 10 trying to investigate in this committee is the 11 so-called, the "secret" atomic -- I'm not going to 12 get the medicine part right -- Atomic Medicine 13 Division of the Veterans Administration; and I'm 14 trying to piece together whether this is part of 15 that or that would relate to something different. 16 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: I don't know. 17 It's been pointed out to me that it could be part of 18 that, but I'm not sure. I've just started into 19 this. I feel pretty naive about a lot of things. 20 Like I said, when the newspaper article came out, I 21 just started calling numbers. People referred me 22 here, people referred me there, and I feel just 23 lucky that I found his medical records. 24 I sent for his ship logs and the rest of 25 his medical papers from the Navy, so we'll see NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 whether I get those or not; and his V.A. medical 2 hospital records, see if I can get ahold of the same 3 doctor. 4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. 5 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: Okay. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 7 MRS. KATHY JACOBOVITCH: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Good. You're 9 welcome. 10 We'll welcome Mrs. JoAnne Watts. 11 MRS. JOANNE WATTS: My name is JoAnne Watts. 12 I reside with my husband Roy in Grants Pass, Oregon. 13 I was reared in southeastern Colorado in the 14 vicinity of Las Animas. At onset of puberty at age 14, 15 I began the menstrual cycle without any breaks 16 between. I had been in the hospital in Las Animas, 17 Colorado, numerous times over a period of two months 18 for blood transfusions and other medications. I was 19 showing no signs of improvement. 20 Two doctors advised my parents to take 21 me to the medical clinic in Denver, Colorado. After 22 undergoing several days of testing for various 23 illnesses at the clinic, I was admitted to 24 St. Luke's in May 1945 for more blood transfusions, 25 more testing and observation. In 1945, St. Luke's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 at Denver was a teaching and training hospital on 2 the leading edge for information and medical 3 knowledge and technology, and continues to the 4 present. 5 After spending a week in the hospital 6 under close observation, reviewing my medical 7 history, the best medical expertise available were 8 seriously debating about my diagnosis and 9 procedures. 10 To assist this committee in its inquiry 11 in understanding the circumstances surrounding my 12 becoming involved as a subject in the use of 13 radiation, I will confine my speech to the second 14 week of my hospitalization of days, weeks and months 15 as a patient at St. Luke's. It's through the eyes 16 of a 15-year-old adolescent girl that I relate to 17 you the conversation between the doctor and my 18 father while they were standing beside my hospital 19 bed. 20 The doctor in charge of my case said he 21 did not know what was wrong with me. My health was 22 gradually deteriorating. He stated they were aware 23 of leukemia but did not have enough knowledge or 24 information about the disease at that time to 25 determine a diagnosis. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 He continued to say that several tests 2 which were given to me had shown the bone marrow was 3 not producing the amount of blood cells in a normal 4 range. My blood-clotting factor was very slow due 5 to the dangerously low count of blood platelets. He 6 didn't know if this was the result of continuous 7 vaginal bleeding, a metabolism imbalance or a 8 genetic abnormality which they had no knowledge of. 9 Some unknown cause was suppressing the function of 10 the bone marrow. 11 My doctor proceeded to tell my father 12 what he knew about the use of radiation, citing 13 numerous studies that were still experimental. The 14 studies had shown that by using low doses of 15 radiation, focused on the long bones of the legs, 16 stimulated the production for making blood. Other 17 than this procedure, he did not know how to proceed 18 treating my illness. On the other hand, if he 19 didn't know the cause, he did have some knowledge on 20 how to treat the symptoms. One physician, he said, 21 was totally opposed to the use of radiation. 22 It was at this time, after listening to 23 the doctor, my father gave his verbal approval to 24 proceed with the method the doctor had described. I 25 didn't know then, nor do I know now, what criteria NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 was used to gauge the strength of radiation or the 2 duration of each treatment that I received. 3 An x-ray technician measured both of my 4 legs and placed large black "X" marks on the upper 5 part of each thigh and just above each knee. I was 6 told not to wash them off until permission was 7 given. My father accompanied me to the radiation 8 room the first treatment. He stood outside the room 9 with the technician and watched the procedure 10 through a very small window. The x-ray machine was 11 placed directly over the designated space between 12 the "X" marks on both legs simultaneously. I know I 13 had at least two treatments. 14 I continued to receive transfusions and 15 numerous injections throughout my stay in the 16 hospital, abating toward the end of my confinement. 17 My menstrual cycle became regulated, but heavy 18 bleeding persisted. 19 I want to thank the Advisory Committee 20 on Human Radiation Experiments for letting me speak. 21 I want to thank Dr. Ruth Faden, Chairman, for the 22 above-mentioned committee, for the letter and 23 invitation to -- an invitation to attend a meeting 24 in Spokane, Washington; Kris Karate (phonetic), the 25 coordinator for Congressional Relations and Public NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Affairs for mailing me the packet of information; 2 Sen. Mark Hatfield's office in Salem, Oregon, for 3 their assistance; and the Los Animas, Colorado, 4 School District for supplying records verifying my 5 absenteeism from school in 1945; and the Supervisor 6 of Records, Ken, at St. Luke's Presbyterian 7 Hospital, Denver, Colorado, for calling to verify 8 the documentation of my being a patient in 1945; 9 comparing a Transferring Patient Admitting Card to 10 numbers on stored microfilm was not possible because 11 of deterioration. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Thank you 13 very much. 14 Questions, please? 15 MR. ROYAL: Did I understand that your 16 medical records are not available because the 17 microfilm that they were stored on was so 18 deteriorated from age? 19 MRS. JOANNE WATTS: From what I 20 understand, sir, the microfilm that is in storage 21 over, well, let's say 50 years, it has set up a 22 chemical reaction so that they mildew or corrode or 23 something. He said they did go over to where they 24 kept the microfilm records, and they tried to 25 compare it with the numbers that was on my admission NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 card, cards -- I was there twice -- and that there 2 was just spots and too dark and that they couldn't 3 make out exactly what the numbers were and it looked 4 like they couldn't decipher it. 5 MR. ROYAL: Have you had subsequent 6 health problems that you relate to this radiation 7 treatment? 8 MRS. JOANNE WATTS: In 1956, shortly -- 9 I didn't become sterilized, however, in 1956, 10 directly after I had my second child, I hemorrhaged 11 in the delivery room and I had continued problems 12 until shortly thereafter, and they performed a 13 hysterectomy. And I had a tumor on the right ovary, 14 that was destroyed, and I had numerous fibroid 15 tumors, and that was part of what was causing them, 16 um-hmm. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Any other questions? 18 Well, we have this -- Thank you for 19 providing this written record for us and it will 20 certainly help us to try to see what, if anything, 21 else we can discover about this with you. 22 MRS. JOANNE WATTS: Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for taking 24 the trouble to come. 25 Mrs. Theresa Potts and Mr. Tom Cooper? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Welcome to both of you and thank you for your 2 patience. How do you say the name of where you're 3 from? 4 MRS. THERESA POTTS: Coeur d'Alene. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Coeur d'Alene? 6 Coeur d'Alene. 7 MRS. THERESA POTTS: Idaho. 8 MR. ROYAL: It would also be helpful to 9 those of us who aren't from the Northwest if you 10 told us how far away you were from where your 11 testimony has to do with. 12 MRS. THERESA POTTS: Excuse me? I 13 didn't understand you. 14 MR. ROYAL: It would be helpful if you 15 told us where Coeur d'Alene was in relationship to 16 Hanford, if your testimony has to do with Hanford. 17 MRS. THERESA POTTS: Actually, I wasn't 18 living in Coeur d'Alene at the time, but Coeur d'Alene 19 is 30 miles east of Spokane, and -- 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, it just looked 21 so beautiful on the page, I just had to find out. 22 Welcome and thank you for joining us. 23 MRS. THERESA POTTS: Thank you for the 24 opportunity to make this statement. My name's 25 Theresa Potts and I live in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 I find myself quite angry and saddened 2 that the United States government, through its 3 military, would make a decision to conduct 4 experiments that they certainly knew could harm its 5 citizens. I am referring to the Green Run and other 6 intentional atmospheric releases. 7 Citizens in the area were not warned of 8 the releases nor were precautions issued that the 9 citizens could take to protect themselves from the 10 radiation releases. I don't believe that there is 11 any justification for a democratic government to 12 operate like this. This kind of behavior is a 13 travesty in a democracy. The government cannot be 14 allowed to harm its own citizens under any 15 circumstances. 16 I hope that the Advisory Committee on 17 Human Radiation Experiments will strongly condemn 18 these actions. I ask that the committee recommend 19 that President Clinton explain the releases and 20 their consequences to the country and apologize in 21 the name of the government; and I think it should 22 also be recommended that Congress pass a resolution 23 assuring the citizens that they will never again be 24 intentionally harmed by their government. And I 25 know that seems naive, but I think it should be done NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 and lived up to. 2 This kind of secrecy and action will 3 eventually destroy this country if it continues. I 4 think the committee should continue to pressure the 5 United States Air Force to release the documents 6 pertaining to Green Run and any other intentional 7 releases. A complete picture might help prevent 8 this from ever happening again. It would at least 9 help put suspicions to rest so that we can move 10 beyond the past. 11 Releasing the names of the persons who 12 authorized these atrocities might serve as a 13 deterrent for others in government who might be 14 tempted to repeat such actions. The released 15 documents might also shed light on health effects 16 resulting from the releases. 17 In closing, I have a question of you. 18 Could you please give us an update of your work on 19 the Green Run case study and a progress report on 20 efforts to declassify the Green Run report? 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Would you like us to 22 try to deal with that now or after the next 23 gentleman or -- 24 MRS. JOANNE WATTS: Yes, that's fine. 25 MR. TOM COOPER: Thank you. My name is NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Tom Cooper, and I also live in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; 2 and I would also like to thank the committee members 3 who are present here today for the opportunity to 4 express my views. The fact that your committee was 5 even created is encouraging, I feel. 6 I am a casualty of the Green Run, even 7 though I was not living in the Coeur d'Alene or the 8 Northwest when the radioactive cloud passed overhead 9 in December of 1949, I wasn't among the innocent 10 people who became ill or lost their lives 11 prematurely because of the Green Run, nor was I 12 among the family members who also suffered as they 13 watched the health of their loved ones deteriorate, 14 but I grieve with and for them and mourn their 15 losses. 16 Instead, I'm part of a larger group of 17 Americans who are a different sort of casualty of 18 the Green Run experiment. The illness spreading 19 amongst us is the disease of cynicism, the cynicism 20 that is born from deceit, a cynicism toward our 21 government and its elected officials who take it 22 upon themselves to make decisions which affect our 23 very lives without so much as the decency to tell us 24 what they've done, let alone seek our consent to do 25 so. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 An article in the Spokesman Review 2 newspaper in 1986 was the first I and most Americans 3 knew about the Green Run. I couldn't believe that 4 such a thing could happen in the United States of 5 America. But as additional stories of human 6 radiation experimentation began to unfold, my 7 disbelief was replaced by a sense of having been 8 betrayed by a government that was not living up to 9 its stated ideals. 10 And now as efforts to declassify all of 11 the documents pertaining to the Green Run are 12 stonewalled by the government, this disease of 13 cynicism spreads and we ask ourselves, "Is this a 14 democracy?" 15 I urge your committee to recommend the 16 immediate declassification and release of all 17 documents pertaining to the Green Run in order that 18 we might finally understand, some 35 years after the 19 fact, how this terrible event could have been 20 proposed and carried out. What branches of 21 government were involved in the decision to carry 22 out the Green Run? How might we better structure 23 the decisions involving national security to better 24 insure the public safety? 25 In addition, full disclosure could shed NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 additional light on the levels of the radiation the 2 Downwinders were exposed to as we consider the issue 3 of compensation. 4 The restoration of faith and trust is a 5 slow process which I think can only be earned 6 through a thorough and honest accounting of the 7 facts surrounding the Green Run and a firm resolve 8 that mistakes of this kind will not be allowed to 9 happen again. 10 I hope that President Clinton will 11 address the American people thoroughly and frankly 12 on your findings and that Congress will consider 13 measures to prevent mistakes of this kind from being 14 repeated in the future. My greatest hope for our 15 future is that our leaders will begin to understand 16 what the public really wants to hear from them is 17 simply the truth. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much, 20 both of you. Let me just say that this. The 21 essence of what both of you have said to us is one 22 that we're certainly hearing a great deal, and it's 23 very important that we hear it. You know, these TV 24 cameras come around and they put all of us on the 25 spot and they ask us, almost inevitably the TV folks NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 ask us, "What's the one thing you hear the most of?" 2 And to be frank, it's what you just said, it's the 3 issue of loss of trust. If I've heard anything in 4 these hearings, it's that over and over again, this 5 concern. 6 And you just need to know that it's 7 important that you traveled this far to say that 8 again to us because it really becomes, I think, a 9 dominant theme for us. The President, when he met 10 with us on the very first day we were committed, 11 commissioned or whatever we were, anointed -- I 12 don't know -- but the first day of our meetings, he 13 said, and he said it very clearly, that he 14 absolutely was going to hold us accountable for 15 allowing him to be able to tell the truth; and so I 16 sincerely hope he will be good to his word on that. 17 But he said it without us asking him, told us that's 18 what he wanted, so I think it was what he wanted. 19 In terms of the specific question you've 20 asked, I'm going to ask Steve Klaidman if he has a 21 little bit of an answer to this in terms of progress 22 in declassifying things. But the only caution I 23 want to make is -- First, I want to be responsive 24 to you. The only dilemma that we have in answering 25 questions at this moment is because we're so -- it's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 so preliminary in terms of our work. 2 It's good and bad in that, number one, 3 we'd like to be able to say, "Oh, we've got all the 4 answers solved, and we're moving right along and 5 we're just making great progress." I don't want to 6 overstate where we are at this point because, again, 7 we are a group of 14 and we're still meeting 8 together. Every three weeks or so, we're together 9 and we're working and talking to each other. 10 But what's good about that is that your 11 testimony comes, again, at a time when you are 12 participating and shaping what we're doing and 13 directing us. This is morning, so much of the work 14 that's been done has given us new leads. I mean 15 we'll go back and we'll do more of that work. 16 So have we declassified everything yet? 17 Well, we are still discovering what "everything" is 18 and so this is ongoing. You've caught us in 19 movement, in progress, and so I don't think we're 20 going to give you an answer that you're going to 21 like today because the answer is that it's too 22 early; we don't know enough to know all the answers 23 to what we should know. But the good thing about it 24 is that's why you came from -- 25 MR. TOM COOPER: Coeur d'Alene. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- Coeur d'Alene, and 2 that's the point of this and I just want to 3 emphasize that. We're getting to the answers. 4 Steve, do you want to -- 5 MR. KLAIDMAN: On the general question 6 of declassification? 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Of Green Run. 8 MR. KLAIDMAN: Green Run, in particular, 9 on the classification issue, the committee has not 10 looked at the Green Run, the classified Green Run 11 materials yet. The reason for that is even though 12 committee members have clearances, the committee's 13 goal from the outset has been to get everything 14 declassified and not to be put in the position where 15 committee members have seen things that they cannot 16 go public with. 17 I believe it is beginning to look, in 18 the case of the Green Run documents, like that won't 19 work -- 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Like it won't work? 21 MR. KLAIDMAN: -- like that will not 22 work, and that committee members and staff with 23 clearances will now have to look at that material 24 and then make recommendations about having it remain 25 classified or be declassified. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 A general comment on the question of 2 classified materials, one of our staffers who is 3 here, Debbie Hahn (phonetic), told me this morning 4 she's just come back from Oak Ridge, and she has a 5 clearance and looked at the classified material; and 6 in each case when she looked at a classified 7 document, she requested that it be declassified, and 8 in each case, within 24 hours it was. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just -- Oh, 10 I'm sorry. Go ahead. 11 MR. ROYAL: I'd like to make a statement 12 about the Green Run documents and I'd like you to 13 know that you have a friend on the committee. I 14 really believe that it's important for the 15 committee, for its own credibility, to get to the 16 bottom of this Green Run document. Here's a 17 document that we know about, and I think that the 18 committee really does have an extraordinary amount 19 of power to wield in terms of getting material 20 declassified. 21 I don't think anyone wants to have the 22 embarrassment of a committee member saying that they 23 read the Green Run document and that there's nothing 24 in it that that committee member saw that would 25 justify it's being classified, and come out in NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 public saying that sort of thing. And I can tell 2 you that I, for one, if I read the document and 3 thought it should be declassified and that there was 4 no justification for classifying it, wouldn't have 5 any hesitation to speak out in public and let you 6 know about that. 7 MRS. THERESA POTTS: That's good to 8 hear. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So what's important 10 is -- I think these are good answers -- the reason 11 that we haven't gotten it all -- grappled all of it 12 with Green Run yet, as I mentioned at some length 13 this morning -- I don't know if you were here when I 14 gave the introduction -- is we're adamant that 15 everything we say and do as a committee is open to 16 the public. 17 So what we basically made a decision is 18 that we don't want to have a conversation about 19 Green Run where it's half conversations, "Well, 20 that's coded, that's classified." Let's go ahead 21 and get the document declassified so we can talk 22 about it in the open and public light. And it looks 23 like, as we've approached this, we don't see any 24 good reason why that document should not be 25 declassified. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 We've had great cooperation, I think, 2 across the board with the federal government. When 3 we said we wanted something declassified, we 4 basically got it declassified. So I think that 5 clearly what you've done is to force us, when we go 6 back and make our report, so that there's going to 7 be even more urgency and attention to this matter 8 about declassifying this document. 9 If we can't do it, we're going to 10 doggone know well why, and then we'll grapple with 11 what the implications of that are. But I think what 12 you heard is the sentiment, I think, of most of us 13 on the committee, is what Henry said. 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Reed, Mrs. Potts 15 also asked, in addition to this declassification 16 request, for an update on staff work on Green Run. 17 You want me to comment on that or do you want to do 18 it yourself? 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Please. Please. 20 MR. THOMAS: We had an extensive 21 discussion for several hours, at our last full 22 committee meeting in Washington last week, of a 23 staff memorandum, a whole series of staff memoranda 24 on the subject of Green Run. We had selected that 25 particularly as a test case in the category of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 affirmative releases. 2 It's my understanding that we brought 3 along copies of that staff memorandum. I don't know 4 if they've all been picked up or not. I think 5 you'll find that probably the best answer to your 6 questions as to where we are at this present point 7 in time. And we certainly would welcome input from 8 you or any of the other members of the audience in 9 terms of additional kinds of questions we ought to 10 be asking, other directions you think we ought to be 11 taking. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, I want to thank 13 you. Obviously, you've got our attention and 14 obviously you pushed us along a road that, frankly, 15 we were walking down, but you've pushed us a little 16 harder. And as far as this recommendation about the 17 Congressional resolution, that's not one which we 18 had -- at least that I've heard presented before as 19 a thought. Whether it's practical for us to ever 20 recommend such, but it's -- now it becomes something 21 we have to think about ourselves. Thank you very 22 much for joining us. 23 MR. TOM COOPER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mrs. Kay Sutherland. 25 Good afternoon, Mrs. Sutherland. How are you doing? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Delighted to be 2 here. Nervous. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: You know, we like 4 people that are nervous 'cause we're nervous a lot 5 ourselves. 6 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Okay. I'm 7 Kay Sutherland from Walla Walla, Washington, born 8 and raised. Five years ago today was devastating 9 for our family when mom and I were diagnosed by the 10 same doctor as having cancer. That does not happen 11 to a family unless you have been exposed to 12 something at the same time. 13 Five weeks after her death, I saw a 14 documentary about Hanford. I became extremely 15 angry. The communities surrounding Hanford have 16 been brainwashed into believing Hanford was safe, 17 clean and caused no harm, it certainly never had an 18 accident or releases into the environment. If there 19 were negative reports in the news concerning 20 Hanford, we were programmed not to pay attention. 21 Hanford contractors, the United States 22 government, environmental agencies and health 23 departments have deceived and lied. Hanford has 24 exposed communities to numerous radionuclides, and 25 each person is an individual experiment unto NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 themselves. Where was the protection for our 2 people? All agencies failed us as the protectors, 3 while they lied and covered up. 4 The contractors knew what they were 5 exposing the people to or the contractors would not 6 have protected themselves with laws that they could 7 not be sued; and if they were, the taxpayer would be 8 liable for their own exposure. 9 The scientists knew that -- of the 10 contamination and the milk run and had their 11 groceries and milk products brought in from outside 12 of the area. 13 In my search for my truth, it became 14 increasing clear of downwind toxic exposure and the 15 severe health problems it has caused. We were used 16 for experimentation without our knowledge or 17 consent. We were lied to again when we were told 18 that the Green Run was the only intentional release. 19 There have been many releases and many studies. 20 Unless you study the issues, people do not know that 21 our own trusted universities were performing the 22 experiments. 23 Many Downwinders have committed suicide 24 because of the pain they have or will have. Many 25 families break apart because of the financial NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 strain. 2 In grade school during the 1940's and 3 fifties, I always had swollen glands, chronic 4 rashes, earaches, tonsillitis and migraine 5 headaches. People in white coats came into my rural 6 school giving inoculations and palpitating my 7 throat. Except for grades, my school and health 8 records have been destroyed. I will never know for 9 certain who and what these people were doing. 10 Hanford people and the health departments went into 11 the rural communities and purposely experimented on 12 school children. I was diagnosed hypothyroid when I 13 was a teenager. 14 I am outraged at the sight of baby 15 cemeteries filled with children like my daughter, 16 who was born in July of 1963. Jennifer weighed 17 2 pounds 12 ounces, was born with severe birth 18 defects. Her legs appeared rather short, meaning 19 that she was possibly a dwarf. She was born with 20 double club feet, with other anomalies, tumors 21 throughout her body and lungs, enlarged liver, and 22 died from a massive stroke which disintegrated her 23 brain. She lived 15 hours 40 minutes. 24 Four years later, my son Todd was born. 25 He survived 36 hours. I also had four other NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 miscarriages. 2 People have testified to the animal 3 birth defects. My daughter was having the same 4 birth defects as the sheep and other animals of that 5 same time period. Jennifer's autopsy was performed 6 by the same pathology lab that Hanford used. 7 Hanford had "body snatchers" who came and took the 8 bodies from the mortuaries and brought them to the 9 laboratory in Walla Walla for autopsies, and most of 10 them were done without consent or knowledge of the 11 family. 12 Recent disclosures proved that -- recent 13 disclosures -- they had intentionally released in 14 September 1969 and had another intentional release 15 in July of 1963 -- Did I say 1969? 1962 and 1963. 16 That was the time frame that I was pregnant with my 17 daughter, and she was born in July. 18 Their tissues could possibly be in the 19 nuclear mausoleum, the Transuranic Registry, that is 20 housed here in Spokane. I don't know that they 21 aren't. I say this because the doctors in Walla 22 Walla, the experiments in Walla Walla were all part 23 of the cover-up. My children could very well be in 24 that registry. 25 My doctor insisted to my husband that I NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 not have a grave to go to to mourn my daughter. He 2 also insisted that my husband sign papers so that my 3 daughter would be cremated. We now know that they 4 take the ash from those remains to find out what 5 radionuclides have been involved in the tissues. 6 Our children for generations will pay 7 the price for Hanford experiments. Was this any 8 different from what was done to the Jewish people? 9 Only our experimentation is still ongoing. Hanford 10 experimented just for the sake of experimenting. 11 They never followed through to any conclusion. 12 Hanford violated our civil rights and they committed 13 murder. My children were murdered. 14 Where have the laws been to protect the 15 downwind population or to find us justice when they 16 spend the taxpayer money fighting the lawsuits with 17 exorbitant spending? There is much information 18 which could be extrapolated from brief high-dose 19 exposure to constant low-dose exposure and studies 20 on animals. Study exposed people as they are being 21 helped. Stop wasting taxpayer money on designed-to- 22 fail studies. 23 Our health has been adversely affected. 24 Many people are without adequate insurance and 25 forced into early retirement from complicated NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 medical problems. We visit our families in 2 cemeteries. Compensation cannot replace what we 3 have lost, but would help to take the people out of 4 the poverty which has been forced upon them. 5 Where are Downwind Nuremberg principles 6 for crimes against humanity? There was no nuclear 7 secret from the Russians. They knew what the 8 American -- they knew what America had. The secret 9 was to our own people, because our nation and public 10 would have had such an appalling outcry that it 11 would have closed down all nuclear reactors. 12 Downwinders need trusted, well-informed 13 representatives from each area at every meeting, 14 with their expenses paid because they cannot afford 15 them themselves. I attended two private meetings 16 with the Department of Energy Chief Medical Officer 17 Stephen Olson, which was followed by a letter from 18 his aide which indicated financial support was 19 possible. 20 We are being controlled by the very 21 people who damaged us. I am here representing my 22 family, my community, the people that were 23 expendable, and all the surrounding communities of 24 Hanford. This has been more than a Buchenwald 25 touch. It has been an genocide of the American NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 people without the use of a gas chamber, with our 2 flag waving on high. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for sharing 4 that. We really don't have but a second, we have to 5 move on, but let me just make sure I understand. 6 When the release was done and the time coincided 7 with your pregnancy -- 8 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Yes. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- where were you 10 living then? 11 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Walla Walla. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. I wish we had 13 our little map of Walla Walla 'cause that's -- 14 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: It's 60 miles as 15 the bird flies. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Thank you. 17 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: You're welcome. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much 19 for sharing with us today. 20 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: For somebody that's 22 supposed to be nervous, you did very well. 23 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Kris, did -- is 25 Ms. Lozon going to be in the second group or the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 same group? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Same group. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mrs. Bev Aleck? Am I 4 saying that right? 5 MRS. BEV ALECK: Aleck. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Aleck. 7 MRS. BEV ALECK: Yes. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes, I knew it right 9 off. 10 MRS. BEV ALECK: You got it right. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I got one, one out of 12 15. 13 MR. ROYAL: The hardest part of being a 14 chairman is pronouncing the names. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Welcome and thank you 16 for joining us. 17 MRS. BEV ALECK: Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: From Anchorage, 19 Alaska? 20 MRS. BEV ALECK: From Anchorage, Alaska. 21 It was quite a time getting into this city -- 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Wow. 23 MRS. BEV ALECK: -- weatherwise and 24 otherwise. 25 I'm here -- I'm here for the Alaska NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 State District Council of Laborers and on behalf of 2 the hundreds of Alaska laborers who worked at 3 Amchitka Island where three atomic tests were 4 conducted, the largest ever conducted by the United 5 States, which were too large for the lower 48; and 6 they resulted in the creation of the Spartan 7 warhead. 8 Amchitka Island is a small sliver of an 9 island approximately 3-1/2 by 37 miles long, located 10 near the end of the Aleutian chain, close to the 11 International Dateline, bounded by the Bering Sea on 12 one side and the Pacific Ocean on the other. 13 The island is a wind-swept, barren 14 muskeg-covered hilly terrain with many lakes and 15 streams, sitting over the edge of the Pacific Rim 16 plates while laced with earthquake faults. The 17 island has been uninhabited by natives probably 18 since the late 1800's and early 1900's and was 19 reserved by the federal government as a fish and 20 marine life preserve and a defense site. It was 21 invaded and occupied by the Japanese during the 22 second world war and retaken by the United States as 23 a major offensive base. 24 After these events, they left behind all 25 the munitions and arms and thousands of barrels of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 fuel oil, and other hazardous materials were just 2 left there and abandoned. 3 The starting of the tests, the atomic 4 tests, by the Department of Defense and the Atomic 5 Energy Commission began in 1965 with the first test, 6 Long Shot, which was 80 kilotons, and that was four 7 times bigger than Iwo Jima, and at only a 2,000-foot 8 depth. The chimney collapsed and vented over the 9 island, contaminating the drilling and mud pits at 10 Ground Zero, the surrounding lakes, streams, surface 11 ground water adjoining the upper strata aquifers. 12 The second test, Milrow, was one 13 megaton, which translates to more than ten times 14 larger than Long Shot, and that one was 4,000 feet 15 deep into the subterranean aquifers only a mile from 16 Long Shot. And the third and final cannikin test in 17 1971 was 5 megatons at 6,000-foot depth below the 18 base of the deepest aquifers. 19 The men who were hired by the 20 contractors -- and this was before the days of 21 O.S.H.A. -- were not given any orientation as to the 22 dangers of radiation, nor were they restricted from 23 any of the areas on the island. They were hired for 24 rotation periods anywhere from three weeks on and 25 one week off, in later times some of them were out NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 there for three months on and a month off. 2 They worked, lived and, on their days 3 off, hiked all over the island including the 4 previous Ground Zero. They fished the lakes and 5 streams and ate the fish. That is, the fish that 6 were left after the radiation contamination; and I 7 would estimate there was probably only five to 8 10 percent of those fish even left. 9 Inside the shaft, burrowing downward, 10 the men worked in a constant shower of water flowing 11 in from the crevices under great pressure, which 12 they plugged with irradiated concrete that was 13 x-rayed after to map the extent of the crevice they 14 were blocking. The workers were not given any 15 protective gear or warnings concerning this 16 tracer-laced concrete. They wore little clothing 17 and sometimes only rain gear in the 110 to 18 140-degree water temperatures. Their skin and 19 clothing were saturated with concrete dust and 20 water, and I saw a lot of that full of rust. 21 I personally know of dozens of workers 22 who have died from leukemia and cancers identified 23 in the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act or are 24 still living with radiation exposure-related 25 illnesses. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Since passage of the Radiation Exposure 2 Compensation Act, under 42 USC 2210, covering the 3 atmospheric and atomic weapons tests, as amended on 4 November the 5th, 1990, to include the Pacific 5 atmospheric and underwater test sites, the Alaska 6 State District Council of Laborers asks this panel 7 to recommend to the Department of Energy to include 8 Amchitka Island as underwater tests by regulation 9 amendment or by Executive Order of the President. 10 Pertaining to Workmen's Compensation, 11 workers at the Amchitka Island who have developed 12 radiation exposure illnesses or have died have been 13 refused Workers' Compensation because radiation 14 contamination information was restricted as 15 classified under "national security" through the 16 years, unfairly denying the workmen their rightful 17 work-injury medical treatment and compensation. 18 The Atomic Testing Liability Act 19 indemnifying contractors, under 42 USC 2210, also 20 enacted on November 5th, 1990, states, "The 21 employees of a contractor shall be considered to be 22 employees of the federal government pertaining to 23 personal injury or death due to exposure by 24 radiation pursuant to this language already enacted 25 by Congress." NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 The Alaska State District Council of 2 Laborers asks President Clinton, by Executive Order, 3 to declare atomic weapons test site workers as 4 federal employees entitled to Workmen's Compensation 5 as a federal employee. 6 Actually, federal employees who have 7 worked at Amchitka have also developed radiation 8 exposure-related diseases, and they are known to 9 file their claims, provide their medical diagnosis, 10 and have their medical treatment and compensation 11 provided at the very same work sites contractor 12 employees have been denied their Worker's 13 Compensation due to the national security. This is 14 not a fair or just system. 15 And I've attached other information. 16 There's diagrams showing the cut of the island 17 strata and the related atomic tests, also an 18 analyzation of radiation contamination by Carl Hild, 19 a biologist with Rural Cap. 20 Thank you on behalf of the Alaska 21 Laborers. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, thank you, 23 again, for having traveled so far to present 24 something that is obviously very important to you. 25 One of the things we're going to need to do on this NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 one is -- I'm not sure, but I'm a little bit 2 concerned about how directly much we, in terms of 3 the scope of our committee, will be able to get at 4 some of this. It's important obviously, but one of 5 the things I think is very important right away is 6 that we should be able to facilitate getting this 7 document into the hands of the DOE. 8 Which agency is it that would be most -- 9 MR. KLAIDMAN: Probably DOE. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: DOE? 11 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Actually, I talked 12 with the Justice Department about the fact that they 13 just left Amchitka out of the Pacific test sites, 14 and they said, well, as far as they were concerned, 15 it met the requirements of being classified as 16 "underwater" -- it certainly isn't under a dry hole -- 17 but it would be up to the Department of Energy. 18 MR. THOMAS: There's something that's 19 puzzling me a little bit. You talked about how the 20 workers at the test site have had their compensation 21 claims denied because they couldn't get the 22 radiation records since they were declassified. 23 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Exactly. 24 MR. THOMAS: But then you went on to say 25 the federal employees have been successful in filing NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 applications for claims -- 2 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Exactly. 3 MR. THOMAS: -- for compensation. 4 If national security were the issue, 5 which would make it impossible for the contract 6 workers to get their radiation doses, I don't see 7 why that same issue wouldn't also apply to the 8 federal employees. Can you elaborate? 9 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Okay. The 10 federal -- You have three compensation systems. One 11 is under State compensation, there's a harbor 12 workers/longshoreman's compensation for defense 13 sites, which are all underwritten by insurance 14 companies. The federal employees are not. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I think what he's 16 saying is that -- 17 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: They're under 18 Title 5 of the U.S. Code. 19 MR. THOMAS: So that's going to present 20 a problem. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: If you can't get the 22 records from the contractors because they're 23 classified, but you've got federal people working 24 side by side -- 25 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Um-hmm. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- who are able to 2 get their records and therefore are not classified, 3 it doesn't hold. Something doesn't make sense 4 there. 5 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Well, they don't 6 have to prove that there's radiation there. 7 MR. THOMAS: Oh, I see; because of the 8 presumption. 9 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: See, the workers -- 10 the workers have their medical records. I mean 11 here's a doctor saying, "Yes, you developed this. 12 The medical records will confirm it." But then the 13 insurance contractor -- I've got a paper right here 14 for my husband, a notice to the Board, leukemia -- 15 it was filed as leukemia from radiation in Amchitka, 16 and it says, "There's no causal relationship between 17 death by leukemia and exposure to radiation while 18 employed at Amchitka by Key West Centennial 19 (phonetic)." So you have to prove there's radiation 20 there. 21 MR. THOMAS: So is the point that you're 22 making that for the federal employees, there's a 23 presumption that simply being -- 24 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Exactly. There's 25 a presumption, and as long as they have the medical NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 report, they're taken care of. It's that simple. 2 MR. THOMAS: I understand. Thank you. 3 MR. ROYAL: The federal employee ones 4 are never simple. 5 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Well, I talked to 6 some of the top supervisors and I know this to be a 7 fact. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Here's what I need 9 you to do, is I really do need you to sit down with 10 staff today. 11 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Okay. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: The reason being is 13 that we've got a -- it's not as -- you know, it's 14 not as obvious for me sitting here now, having heard 15 this. We've got to get into this as to what we -- 16 as to how to deal with it, and I don't want to give 17 you a short shrift. You've come a long way and this 18 is important. 19 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Right. I'm also a 20 member of the Task Force on Human Radiation 21 Experiments. I'm involved with them as well, 22 personally. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Right. Please, let's 24 just make sure you debrief our folks here. That's 25 why they're here today. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: I'll be happy to. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And then let's do 3 everything we can to be of help to you. 4 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Yes. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 6 MRS. KAY SUTHERLAND: Thank you very 7 much. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 9 Appreciate it. 10 Ms. Sherri Lozon -- I hope I'm saying 11 that right -- who is from the Nez Perce Tribe? 12 MS. SHERRI LOZON: Nez Perce. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's what I said, 14 Nez Perce. You misheard me if I read it wrong. 15 Thanks a lot for your patience. Where is the -- 16 MS. SHERRI LOZON: It's in central 17 Idaho. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Central Idaho? 19 MS. SHERRI LOZON: Right next to 20 Washington. 21 I'd like to thank you for coming to 22 Spokane. My name is Sherri Lozon. I'm the 23 Environmental Health Specialist of the Nez Perce 24 Tribe, Environmental Restoration Waste Management 25 Department. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 The Nez Perce Tribe is located in 2 central Idaho. I brought a map -- and before I go 3 any more, I am going to send a written copy of my 4 testimony -- I just want to show you this. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Oh, okay. 6 MS. SHERRI LOZON: I hope that you can 7 all see this from here. It's a map of Idaho, 8 Washington and Oregon. Hanford is the orange dot, 9 the Nez Perce Tribe is the green dot, the green area 10 is in Idaho. And I'm showing you this to prove -- 11 Mt. St. Helen's, in 1983 -- Mt. St. Helen's is 12 located about right here (indicating), and in 1980 13 it erupted and blew; and on the Nez Perce 14 reservation, we had about three inches of ash, and 15 the wind -- From Battelle reports that I've read 16 before, they want to say that the air emissions only 17 occur in the state of Washington, they don't leave 18 the state of Washington. Idaho soil is made up of 19 Washington dirt, and the wind pattern blows this way 20 and goes up. 21 The Nez Perce Tribe has been affected by 22 the -- any releases or any experiments that have 23 gone on at Hanford. If you recall Chernobyl, 24 Chernobyl had air releases but they didn't stay in 25 one spot. They traveled to different continents NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 even. 2 The Nez Perce Tribe is vulnerable, 3 unsuspecting, an involuntary victim of every 4 experiment that occurred at Hanford. We have 5 cancer. We have the highest breast rate cancer in 6 the state of Idaho. We have the highest diabetes 7 rate of all American Indians in the Northwest. Now, 8 for some reason, we have the highest SIDS rate of 9 America in that area. 10 How can we not be a victim of Hanford, 11 and how can anyone say that the air only stays in 12 the Hanford area, and why are we getting all these 13 illnesses and sicknesses, and why do we have all 14 these cancers of the prostate and breast and 15 cervical cancer, and where is it coming from? 16 I would also like to ask President 17 Clinton, if you would refer this to him, why there 18 is not an Indian representative on this national 19 advisory committee. Is there a subcommittee within 20 this committee that looks into any radiation 21 experiments on Indian people? Are there any studies 22 by this committee that are specifically involved in 23 Indian populations and radioactive experiments on 24 them? 25 I want to urge the advisory committee to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 please investigate any possible experiments to 2 Indian people, if it's not being done already. The 3 places that you might be able to look for it are 4 Indian Health Service hospitals, Indian Health 5 Service medical clinics, Indian boarding schools 6 across the country, Indian tuberculosis clinics 7 across the country. If you haven't looked into any 8 of these histories of these institutions, then this 9 is a request to do so. And that concludes my 10 testimony. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Again, thank you very 12 much. Let me just ask the -- give me -- Your 13 occupation, again, is? 14 MS. SHERRI LOZON: I'm the environmental 15 health specialist within the Environmental 16 Restoration and Waste Management Department, and my 17 department works directly with any Hanford 18 activities. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Have you -- again, 20 given the resources of the Indian Health Service, 21 being a part of the Department of Health & Human 22 Services, have you had the opportunity as of yet -- 23 probably not -- but to bring in any of the 24 epidemiologists, health experts to look at any 25 possible relationships between what you described as NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 high incidences of carcinoma and other diseases in 2 trying to relate that or separate that out from 3 other experiences among Native Americans who also 4 occupy generally that same geography but may not 5 have been exposed to this extra variable? 6 MS. SHERRI LOZON: No, I have not. 7 There have not been any studies specifically on 8 that, but that's not to say that it isn't being 9 thought of, because there's just so many people on 10 my reservation that are having cancer of the 11 prostate and breast and cervical. Just last week we 12 had two SIDS on the reservation. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So you haven't made a 14 decision at this point? Is it still early enough 15 that it hasn't been looked at yet, or do you have 16 reason to think that this is, again, different, a 17 different experience from other Native American 18 communities in this area, and has this brought up 19 any alarm bells starting to ring anywhere in the 20 Indian Health Service? 21 MS. SHERRI LOZON: I've been in my 22 position for about six months and I'm doing a cancer 23 incident report on the Nez Perce reservation, and 24 that's why it just throwing bells up and whistles 25 right now. And now with so many people coming to me NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 and asking me, "Why is my cousin, who's 33 years 2 old, why is he dying and why do we have to bury him 3 last year?" Another lady, a friend of mine, her 4 aunt has had breast cancer recently and is at home 5 now, and I have an uncle who has prostate cancer; 6 and it's just starting to -- you're just seeing so 7 much. Why? Where did it come from? 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just follow 9 that, in terms of my questioning of what you just 10 said. I might say to you one of the things I 11 particularly appreciated, at least I did, in your 12 comments was the issue of, "What about the Native 13 American community?" One of our charges is to look 14 at issues regarding, in the general sense of the 15 word, "vulnerable" populations. That's been an 16 issue for us, one that the committee feels fairly 17 strongly about. 18 What would be useful is if you could 19 help us, in addition to our looking at the sources 20 that you gave us which are very specific, 21 tuberculosis clinics and so forth and so on, would 22 be to connect us -- suggest for us people in Native 23 American communities that are doing -- that are 24 looking at -- or could help us to look at this on a 25 larger scale. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 There are other people that have already 2 expressed an interest in these kinds of topics from 3 the Native American community itself. It would be 4 useful if there was some network we could plug into 5 as we try to do our work, so we're -- we need a 6 little help; and there may be some environmental 7 justice folks you're in contact with given your 8 work. I don't know. But we could use a little 9 ongoing follow-up as you leave the meeting. 10 MS. SHERRI LOZON: (Nods head 11 affirmatively.) 12 MR. THOMAS: Let me put my two cents 13 worth in on this subject. We don't, at least at 14 present, have a subcommittee on minority populations 15 per se to the Indians. Committee membership -- 16 subcommittee membership, however, is a continually 17 shifting target and we adapt from meeting to 18 meeting, so that's actually quite a reasonable 19 suggestion that we might well take back to the full 20 committee for discussion at our next meeting. 21 This is not to say that we're neglecting 22 those issues, however, and to the extent that we've 23 become aware of experiments on either the minority 24 populations or Indians, they have indeed been 25 discussed by the various other committees that are NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 looking into various categories of intentional 2 releases or experiments. 3 But you can do us a huge favor, as Reed 4 pointed out, making us aware of these issues. We 5 do, for example, have a subcommittee on research on 6 children, for example, motivated in large part by 7 the fact that there are a few well-publicized 8 examples that have come to our attention that we 9 just cannot overlook. 10 The existence of some well-publicized 11 examples of research on Indians, for example, would 12 certainly help motivate the full committee to look 13 into this further and perhaps establish a 14 subcommittee on minority populations. So I think 15 it's a very reasonable suggestion that I'd like to 16 see us discuss some more. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, if you would, 18 just then do for us the favor of making it known 19 within your network and circle that you testified in 20 front of us, that your testimony was well received, 21 and that we asked you back to please discuss this. 22 Make it widely known such that if there are other 23 examples that we need to be made aware of, they 24 might come up to the light of the surface. So we 25 would appreciate your help in that. We'll do our NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 part on our end, but to be frank, we're going to 2 need some help, and good luck doing that. 3 Is there a question? 4 MR. WENDALL OGG: Could I ask a question 5 of this lady? 6 You know, the natural radiation on the 7 earth and the skies is 300 units per year. There 8 are many places in the world that have a higher 9 radiation background; for example, three times that 10 high. Do you know what the natural radiation 11 background is where you are? 12 MS. SHERRI LOZON: I'm not aware of 13 that. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thanks. Okay. Thank 15 you very much. Very much appreciate it. 16 It is time for a quick break. Group 17 Four, by the way, let me put you on notice. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I notice that 20 Mrs. JoAnne Watts -- Oh, we did JoAnne Watts. 21 That's why it's crossed out. 22 So I've got Ms. Rose Marie Waldram -- 23 MR. ROYAL: Excellent. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- Mrs. Jeanne Haycraft, 25 Mr. Deb Louie, Mr. Rett Carter and Mrs. Darcy Thrall. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 And then depending on our energy, we might want to 2 go ahead -- Is Ms. Lynne Stembridge here? 3 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: Yes. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And Mrs. Lois Camp? 5 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: If our brains are 7 still engaged, we may go ahead and put you all in 8 the same group and just do everybody after the last 9 break. If it looks like we're questioning people at 10 length and we're not giving you -- can't give you 11 the attention you need, then we'll get you later. 12 All right. So it is now almost 20 to 13 the hour, so we'll start at exactly 10 to the hour, 14 ten of. 15 (Recess taken from 3:40 to 3:50.) 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We're going to 17 resume. Thank you very much. 18 Let the record state we aren't yet 19 starting... 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. We're 22 going to resume. Is Ms. Rose Marie Waldram here? 23 Rose Marie? Ms. Rose Marie Waldram? Well, we'll 24 call for you later. Maybe you'll come. 25 She has not checked in yet so that we NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 don't think she is here. It's not that I think 2 somebody's at the water cooler and we're just going 3 to steamroll over them. We don't think she's here, 4 so we'll announce her one more time as the evening 5 goes on. 6 Mrs. Jeanne Haycraft? Haycraft? 7 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Haycraft. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: "Craft." Well, I 9 would have done well, but they just have this as two 10 f's instead of an "f" and a "t." I would have been 11 correct. Welcome and thank you. 12 Let me just ask the people in the back, 13 the people in the back -- Thank you. We just 14 really want to make sure we're able to concentrate. 15 Thank you. 16 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: First of all, I'd 17 like to say I couldn't get my birth records from Our 18 Lady of Lords in Pasco, Washington. I was born in 19 1952, but they gave me something in 1953, and they 20 said they do not have my birth records, and I would 21 like to have that. And as far as the other records 22 go, I don't know yet. I expected them this week, 23 but I don't know when I'm going to get them, so I'd 24 like to get some help in getting my records. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Help us a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 little bit to understand. Really, take us a little 2 bit deeper so we understand why you want this and 3 what the nature of your inquiry's about. 4 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Well, I was born 5 with a serious birth defect in our Lady of Lords 6 Hospital, and I want those records. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. And in 8 asking for them, what was the response other than 9 they just sent you the wrong information? 10 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: They sent me '53 11 records when I had a piece of glass in my knee 12 removed when I was a year old. And I called the 13 director of the hospital today and she said she 14 doesn't know what happened to them, where they are, 15 and she said it's very unusual that they're not 16 there. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Boy. And this 18 is the records of your -- What about under your 19 mother's name? 20 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: They looked under 21 my mother's name and my father's name. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And there were just 23 no records there? 24 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: No records. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I see. Well, the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 thing of it then is you were, I imagine -- Did you 2 have a private physician at all, a pediatrician? 3 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Yes, I did. It 4 was Dr. Eugene Fairbanks. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I wonder if the 6 information that may be of use, in terms of what 7 whatever your inquiry is about, may be contained in 8 his records. 9 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Possibly. I hear 10 he's still in the Kennewick area. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Then, you know, why 12 don't you try -- I mean I think it would be -- 13 whatever it is you really need to know -- Do you 14 think he's still alive? 15 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: I've heard he is 16 still alive. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, I would just 18 really strongly urge you to go ahead and get in 19 touch with him. 20 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: I do have these 21 from '53 and it does show that I was born there. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes. No, I can't 23 understand. It's hard to understand why a hospital 24 would not have your records available, but sometimes 25 that does happen. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. TOM BAILIE: That's the same 2 hospital that lost mine. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is that -- 4 MR. TOM BAILIE: Lady of Lords, same 5 hospital. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, I would say 7 again that if there is some concern that there is 8 something more than what this appears to be, the 9 information that you -- I mean I just cannot 10 imagine that your private pediatrician, from his 11 records, would not be able to talk to you about the 12 nature of his examinations of you from the time you 13 were very little and the consequences of that, and 14 that might help you. 15 As far as our -- If what we are 16 basically suggesting, Tom, is some pattern of loss 17 of records for some reason, if there are many others 18 who are experiencing that similar sort of thing and 19 you're starting to suspect that, then, Tom, again, 20 just get that to our staff to go in and take a look 21 at it. 22 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay? I mean if 24 that's something that there's evidence of that and 25 it's important, then let's look at it. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Anything else we can do? 2 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Well, I'll start 3 out with my story. I'm a little nervous, so you'll 4 just have to bear with me. 5 My mother went to high school in Pasco 6 and Benton in 1948 and 1949 and 1950. During her 7 pregnancy with me in 1951 and '52 in Pasco, 8 Washington, she was vomiting, had diarrhea, was 9 dehydrated, she lost hair. 10 She went to Dr. Eugene Fairbanks of 11 Kennewick. He gave her injections every day of her 12 pregnancy with me, three times he gave her IV's. 13 This was done in his private office, and she was 14 told by him it would make her feel better, it would 15 get her well. She never got well. She got worse. 16 Her hands and ankles had to be bandaged because of a 17 rash that turned into sores. She developed urinary 18 infections, kidney infections. 19 My father was in the Oregon State 20 Penitentiary during her pregnancy with me. I was 21 born in 1952 in Our Lady of Lords in Pasco, 22 Washington. I was born a blue baby with a fistula 23 and an elongated tumor from my throat area that was 24 connected to my heart. Dr. Fairbanks stood across 25 the room and looked on as the nuns revived me. My NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 mother was not allowed to unwrap me. 2 When she brought me home, she unwrapped 3 me, and to her horror saw the hole in my throat. 4 She rushed me to Dr. Fairbanks' office, and he said, 5 "Your baby's got a serious birth defect and you have 6 to take her immediately to Children's Hospital in 7 Seattle." 8 She was told when I was old enough -- 9 she was told in Seattle that when I was old enough 10 to survive surgery, the doctor from Chicago would 11 come out. My mother took me to Doernbecher Hospital 12 in Portland, Oregon. The surgery took place when I 13 was 11 months old. My doctor from -- no -- by that 14 doctor from Chicago. It was an 8-hour surgery in 15 which he and assistants removed the tumor. 16 I had bacterial endocarditis when I was 17 ten years old. I delivered my children Caesarean 18 section because I couldn't dilate, and x-rays 19 revealed I had a flat disk that shouldn't be in the 20 birth channel, and a deformed tailbone. 21 In my son I have observed the Marcus 22 syndrome. He has long flat feet and long 23 extremities. My daughter has the flat feet and long 24 extremities. My brother Tommy died in 1955 of 25 tumors all through his body. He was 4-1/2 months NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 old. And I have cousins that are suffering from 2 thyroid disease, are on medication. 3 I have a severely damaged heart right 4 now. If you have a stethoscope, you're welcome to 5 see how I have to live without health care. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Let me 7 ask, where did you live growing up? 8 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: I lived in Pasco. 9 I was born in Pasco. My mother was pregnant with me 10 there. I was there a few years. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Just help us in terms 12 of the spatial relationship between Pasco and 13 Hanford. 14 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Excuse me now? 15 (Comment from the audience.) 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Right there 17 (indicating)? Thank you. Just trying to understand 18 what part of the state. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Tri Cities. 20 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Yeah. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So it's right here 22 (indicating)? 23 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Richland, Pasco, 24 in that area. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, thank you. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Any particular -- As we continue then 2 to try to explore this, this will be helpful. 3 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Okay. And, also, 4 on my brother Tommy's behalf, we're having trouble. 5 We can't get his autopsy report, and the coroner 6 that -- he's buried in Belcrest, in Salem, Cemetery 7 -- the coroner used to own the cemetery back then, 8 and his autopsy report should have been there and it 9 wasn't there. So we'd like to see what we can do 10 about that, too. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Are you connected -- 12 What I'm sensing -- and I hope it's true, I don't 13 know, maybe not -- is that some of you who have been 14 testifying today, are you in any way in 15 communication with each other such that, you know, 16 people can be found fairly easily, there's a network 17 forming? Is that -- Am I -- 18 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: I think it can be 19 done. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So that if some -- It 21 just seems to me that one of the things we're 22 looking at is how well -- First of all, I don't 23 want to make a premature conclusion, but if it turns 24 out that it would be useful for the epidemiology 25 people, either from the state or someplace else, to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 start and come in and look at this -- and we're 2 still trying to understand that point better -- 3 whether or not there's an easy mechanism to be able 4 to facilitate going to the level of detail that we 5 can't do here today. But since we've started this 6 process, I'd like to know, if we need to continue 7 it, that's there's a way of doing that without a lot 8 of difficulty. 9 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Uh-huh. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So we have your name 11 and number, so I guess that's the easiest. 12 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Okay. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for taking 14 the time. 15 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Thank you. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Jeanne, are you 17 willing to share with him -- 18 This is a very important part. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Oh, sure. Of course. 20 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Should have added 21 this. I'd like you to know, also, that I don't know 22 the doctor's name -- my mother could recognize the 23 doctor in a line-up -- but he did offer to buy me 24 for $10,000, and on my brother there was an offer 25 for him for 6,000 and 10,000 and they said they NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 could go more, by another doctor; and these were 2 doctors out of Oregon. 3 MS. LEDERER: What do you mean? I'm 4 sorry? 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We're not sure we -- 6 We think we understand. We want to make sure we 7 understand. 8 MR. TOM BAILIE: Say it again. It's 9 shocking. 10 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Okay. My mother 11 was offered $10,000 from a doctor from Oregon to by 12 me; and she was also offered, when she was pregnant 13 with my brother Tommy, she was offered $6,000 and 14 then she was offered $10,000. And that's the truth, 15 and my mother will take a lie detector test, 16 whatever you want. 17 MS. LEDERER: Do you know of other 18 people who had offers to sell their children? 19 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: No, I don't. No, 20 I don't. 21 MS. LEDERER: Okay. This is the first 22 time I've heard of that. That's why I wasn't sure I 23 understood what you said. 24 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Yeah. It's all 25 the truth, and my mother will do whatever she has to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 do. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Does she have any 3 sense, by the way, of where she encountered these 4 doctors from Oregon? Does she have any sense of who 5 they might have been? 6 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: She said she could 7 recognize them in pictures. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: But not knowing -- 9 She wasn't being treated in Oregon? 10 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: There was a doctor 11 in that town. I can't pronounce it. Amaha? 12 (phonetic) 13 MR. TOM BAILIE: Where? 14 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: That little town 15 in Oregon. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Astoria? 17 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: No, starts with "a." 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Imnaha? 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: Imnaha, yeah. 20 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Imnaha, yeah. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Thank you very 22 much. 23 MS. JEANNE HAYCRAFT: Okay. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Appreciate it. 25 Mr. Deb Louie? Mr. Deb Louie? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Okay. We don't think that he's here yet 2 either, he hasn't checked in. We'll try one more 3 time with him later before we conclude. 4 Mr. Rex Harter? (phonetic) 5 MR. TOM BAILIE: Not here yet. Soon to 6 come. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Soon to come. 8 Ms. Darcy Thrall? 9 Ms. Thrall, thank you very much. From 10 Benton City? 11 MS. DARCY THRALL: Benton City. Our 12 minds are all in gear here? 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We are absolutely 14 tuned in. 15 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. I was in San 16 Francisco last month to testify, and because we're 17 closer to my home base, I would like to tell my 18 story again and add a little to it because I've 19 learned a little more since then. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 21 MS. DARCY THRALL: My father went to 22 work at Hanford in 1944 and worked there till 1973. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Can you speak a 24 little bit into that microphone a little better? 25 Thanks. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MS. DARCY THRALL: My father worked at 2 Hanford from 1944 until 1973. In the 1961-1962 3 school year, I was taken from my classroom at 4 Spalding Elementary School down to another room 5 where I was told to drink a little paper cup full of 6 white liquid. Then I was taken outside to a van and 7 monitored, sent through a machine. 8 I was given a log at that time to take 9 home to my parents and have them fill it out, what I 10 ate, what I drank and where it came from; and I did 11 that. That was my mother's first knowledge of this, 12 and she did as she was told. I took it back and was 13 monitored again. 14 I have been trying to find out 15 information. I've gone to school teachers. I've 16 gone to try to find my principal. He's no longer 17 living, but his wife is. I found out from the 18 Richland School District that all my school records 19 have been destroyed. I had them document that in 20 writing. All I have is that I attended Spalding 21 School from 1960 to 1966 and a list of my teachers. 22 I've gone to the Public Health 23 Department in Richland where I remember going as a 24 child to get the little -- oh, to get shots, measle 25 shots. Some of them were done in the schools, too, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 the sugar cubes with the polio vaccination on it. I 2 went there the other day and asked for my records, 3 gave them my date of birth and my name and Social 4 Security number. 5 They came up with the only thing they 6 have on me is a tetanus shot, 5-31-73, and a 7 tuberculosis test 4-9-74. I lived in Alaska in 8 April of '74. I was not even living in Richland, 9 Washington. I had them also write the documentation 10 that that's all they have on me. The stories I hear 11 today of people being unable to find their records, 12 this is very typical of that. 13 Another thing that's very typical of 14 living in that area is in Friday's Tri City Herald, 15 on page 10, there's an article that lets the people 16 in the Tri City area know that this meeting is being 17 held "tomorrow" here. Therefore, there are probably 18 a lot of people who would have full intentions to be 19 here to talk to you today, although they're going to 20 be showing up here tomorrow. 21 I know my best friend, I set beside her 22 when she telephoned the Tri City Herald to let them 23 know that it was a mistake. The mistake was not 24 rectified in any way. There was no reprint. I 25 don't know how many people are going to travel up NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 here tomorrow. 2 (Document given to committee.) 3 MS. DARCY THRALL: It's on page 10A, 4 it's a very small article. 5 I also find it very consistent in that 6 paper that the day before there is to be a meeting 7 held that might be of great interest to many people, 8 somewhere on some page 26 there will be a little 9 tiny article stating that that meeting is going to 10 be held at 7 a.m. the following morning. Not many 11 people can put their lives on hold and change 12 everything and attend these meetings. 13 I also have for you just one page of my 14 mother's diary that she's kept from her church, that 15 is prayer requests, that I will leave with you 16 today. 17 I first went public with this last 18 January. The Tri City Herald picked up the issue 19 and put it in the paper, and it was -- it was -- 20 They explained it like, you know, I must not have 21 remembered correctly because Battelle didn't do 22 testing at that time. Well, I didn't say it was 23 Battelle. I still don't know who tested me, who had 24 me drink that. I don't know who it was. 25 After coming back from San Francisco, I NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 got a phone call from someone from the DOE who said 2 that he had information that I might be interested 3 in. I tried to contact him several times. He's 4 never called back. Last Monday I got a phone call 5 from Yvonne from DOE who said that there was tests 6 of a dietary study that was available; and we played 7 phone tag all week, and finally Friday we connected. 8 She said that if I brought in ID to the 9 federal building and filled out the forms, that I 10 could pick up that information. And I asked her if 11 I would also have the information of what I drank 12 and if I would get the information of what the body 13 count told, and she said, "No, that information is 14 not going to be available because people that were 15 involved in that are no longer with us now." That 16 leads me to believe that in fact -- I know I drank 17 something, because I was there. I did drink 18 something. And I'm the one that was given the dog 19 tag that I have on me right now. 20 These dead-end roads I'm running into 21 have made me real angry and it makes me feel that 22 something is definitely being covered up. I am not 23 going to quit pursuing it. I am going to -- If I 24 have to have a class reunion, I'm going to find more 25 people, and I'm never going to quit until I find NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 something out. And I would like answers to 2 everything, and I would like anybody who could 3 possibly find an avenue to pursue those answers to 4 please, please do it. 5 It means very much to my health and my 6 daughter's health and future generations' health. 7 For so very many people, it's very important. It's 8 hard to live with the medical problems. It's hard 9 for other people to live with people with medical 10 problems. 11 I have no income right now whatsoever, 12 unless I go apply for state aid. That's my next 13 avenue. Right now I'm fortunately living off of 14 people who love me, and I don't want to because I 15 love them back. That's pretty much what I have to 16 say today. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thanks again for 18 coming. We do remember you from San Francisco, and 19 the dog tags. 20 MS. DARCY THRALL: Oh, there is a few 21 more things. I have a prescription here for some 22 medication that is so expensive that I can't afford 23 it. I can't buy it. And it allows me to eat. I 24 have lost five pounds since I've got this medication 25 prescription because I can't afford it. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 I have lumps that are coming all over my 2 body that are going to be biopsied on the 29th, and 3 I had a mammogram done on the 10th because the lump 4 in my breast has probably doubled in size in the 5 last couple months, and I have lymph glands in my 6 armpit extending down my breast that are horribly 7 swollen and it's hard to use my arm now. 8 Also, I was told that I could read a 9 testimony for somebody else today. Can I do that 10 now? 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Sure. 12 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. This is in 13 regards to a woman named Thelma J. Grove. She gave 14 this to me on October 29th. 15 "I was raised in Richland, Washington, 16 moving there in 1945. I attended Richland schools 17 for 13 years, worked at Hanford in the 200 West area 18 for one and 1-1/2 years. Married, I lived in West 19 Richland one year, then at Kennewick, Washington, 20 for 11 years. 21 "My body and my three children's bodies 22 were affected by the pollution released by Hanford's 23 Washington releases of waste in the air and water. 24 I had uterine cancer and had to have it removed at 25 the age of 32 at the Kennewick, Washington, General NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Hospital in 1969. I developed breast cancer and had 2 both breasts removed in 1987 at Spokane, Washington, 3 Deaconess Hospital. The nerve problems that 4 developed from having my uterus removed early in 5 life has been numerous and costly. I will have to 6 take medication for the rest of my life. 7 "I have three sons that were raised in 8 the area of the Hanford waste, which I feel has 9 affected their bodies for life. The firstborn, 10 Warren, at Cadillac Hospital in Richland, was born 11 without a proper urine tract and had to have one 12 made at 7 years old at the Cadillac Hospital. 13 "Our third son, Nathan, born at Our Lady 14 of Lords Hospital in Pasco, Washington, in 1964 was 15 born without a urine tract and had one built at the 16 age of two months at Cadillac Hospital in Richland, 17 Washington. Nathan was born with two bladders and 18 four kidneys, which has caused problems. He 19 developed diabetes mellitus at the age of 9 and was 20 hospitalized in St. Maries Hospital in Walla Walla, 21 Washington, in 1973. This is a lifetime problem. 22 "Our second son, Ronald, developed 23 severe allergies that caused him moments of not 24 being able to breathe. He has to take treatment for 25 the rest of his life. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 "The oldest, Warren, was a good student 2 and a graduate in the top of his class. He became a 3 civil engineer at Hanford. While working there, he 4 developed paranoid schizophrenia. The doctors at 5 St. Maries Hospital in Walla Walla, Washington, 6 assured us that he was not a drug user. He was 7 making a good wage at the time that he became ill. 8 "He was put on Loxitane, which helped, 9 but after hospitalized in a --" "-- but after, he 10 was hospitalized in the mental hospital at Orofino, 11 Idaho. With Loxitane he could live as close as 12 possible to a normal life, but he can't work. He 13 was able to get SSI income, which is $640 a month, 14 which barely covers his rent and food. 15 "The medications cost about $200 per 16 month, plus doctors. As parents, we pay for this 17 here. There is no federal or state funds to help 18 those with mental disorders. If we, his parents, 19 die, how will he survive? Hospitalization the rest 20 of his life? We sure hope not. 21 "We feel that the Hanford waste problems 22 has affected our lives and health. My mother, 23 Orlita Briley (phonetic), who has lived in Richland 24 since 1945, developed uterine cancer and had surgery 25 at Kennewick General Hospital in 1968. Then in 1986 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 she had cancer of the breast and had it removed at 2 Cadillac Hospital in Richland, Washington. 3 "My father, Warren Briley, worked around 4 the hot stuff at Hanford from 1944 until his 5 retirement in 1974. He had skin cancer from 6 radiation. He had kidney stones several times, 7 believed to be caused from Hanford pollution. 8 "We believe this pollution ruined our 9 health lives. If I need to, I will personally tell 10 our life stories to you. Please accept this 11 testimony. I was raised in a family of four girls. 12 All four of us have health problems that involve 13 lifetime treatments we believe are related to the 14 Hanford pollution. 15 "Louise Jenkins at Benton City, 16 Washington; Leona Fulton (phonetic) of Pasco, 17 Washington; and Maudine Lewis (phonetic) of San 18 Diego, California. 19 "Sincerely, Thelma J. Grove." 20 Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Let me, 22 just real quickly because we have to move on, but 23 let me ask, relating to your testimony, number one, 24 the person that you spoke with at the Department of 25 Energy, relate to me again this person -- What was NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 this conversation again? 2 MS. DARCY THRALL: The conversation was 3 that they had information on a dietary study done at 4 the schools in the early sixties, and I could come 5 in and fill out forms and then just show some 6 identification and they would release that 7 information to me. That was when I asked her if 8 they would also release the information that told 9 what I drank and what they found when they monitored 10 me, and she said, "No, because the people involved 11 at that time are no longer with us." 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So, in other words, 13 she's saying to you -- let me make sure I understand 14 the implication of what you're saying -- she's 15 saying that she doesn't have the information on that 16 part of it because the people that conducted it are 17 no longer here? Is that what you got from it? 18 MS. DARCY THRALL: I'm not really 19 certain. It was very vague to me. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: What do you -- 21 MS. DARCY THRALL: I perceive it that 22 that information has to be somewhere and they know 23 that, but -- 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: See, that's what I want 25 to be real precise about now, is that if she's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 saying -- Is she saying to you that she doesn't 2 have that information, or are you saying she's got 3 the information and isn't giving it to you? I mean 4 is there a reason why you think that the latter may 5 be true? 6 MS. DARCY THRALL: Well, the reason I 7 think the latter may be true is because of all these 8 dead ends I run into any time I try to find out any 9 information on myself. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: But if she's being 11 honest with you saying, "I don't have" -- "we don't 12 know the information, we don't know how to get it, 13 the people that know are not here," I mean how does 14 the Department of Energy ever give you a truthful 15 answer that doesn't leave you with suspicions, I 16 guess is the question I'm asking. 17 MS. DARCY THRALL: I don't really know 18 the answer to that. 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's helpful. 20 Yeah? 21 MR. ROYAL: I have a couple questions. 22 You mentioned filling out this form for the DOE -- 23 MS. DARCY THRALL: Um-hmm. 24 MR. ROYAL: -- in order to get this 25 document. Why did you have to fill out a form? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Because there was no personal information about you, 2 I guess I don't understand why they couldn't just 3 put something in the mail and just send it to you. 4 MS. DARCY THRALL: It could be sent to 5 me. The form could be sent to me in the mail. In 6 fact, that's what I told her to do because I was 7 leaving town the very next -- early the very next 8 morning after I talked to her. So I asked her to 9 please put those forms in the mail to me so that 10 when I get home tomorrow, I can fill out the forms 11 and take them in and get that information; and at 12 that time I will be able to receive what information 13 is available. 14 MR. ROYAL: Could you send us a copy of 15 those forms that are sent to you? 16 MS. DARCY THRALL: I would be glad to. 17 MR. ROYAL: It's not clear to me why you 18 need to fill out these forms. 19 MS. DARCY THRALL: I'll just send you a 20 copy of the forms when I get them, and fill them out 21 and send you a copy of that, too. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: More importantly -- 23 and I don't mean -- I'm just curious about these 24 forms. What doesn't make sense is why they'd have 25 to give you a copy of the report as opposed to -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Are they giving you -- are you led to believe you're 2 getting something that relates to you specifically? 3 MS. DARCY THRALL: That's what I am led 4 to believe, yes. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Not just a 6 general report on the study. 7 MS. DARCY THRALL: No. I'm led to 8 believe that they will give me information on the 9 dietary part. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Right. Let me just 11 ask you, also, then -- 12 Tom, hold on a minute, please, 'cause 13 we're getting crazy up here. 14 What would be useful and would save us a 15 lot of time for the staff -- 16 Is the staff still here? 17 -- would you give her the name of the 18 person at DOE that you talked to so that we can go 19 ahead and get this study ourselves? Okay? Let's 20 just make this very simple and user-friendly. If 21 you'd do that after you finish -- 22 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- and just cut 24 through all this for us. 25 MR. THOMAS: This is a story which NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 really grabbed the advisory committee -- 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Especially dog tags. 3 MR. THOMAS: -- in September. 4 MS. DARCY THRALL: I've still not been 5 able to find out what the bottom letters on that dog 6 tag represent either, and I've shown it to my 7 teachers and some of them remember dog tags, but 8 they don't know what it means. 9 MR. THOMAS: Well, I want you to know we 10 haven't forgotten this. 11 MS. DARCY THRALL: That's good. 12 MR. THOMAS: We have a request at 13 Hanford with the admissions operations officer now 14 to get additional information on quite a wide range 15 of topics, but one of them is the study of this 16 case. I'm not quite sure how we came about it, but 17 we identified a document series which may have 18 information regarding that. It was a statement in a 19 formal request following up on your story -- at 20 least I think this was a follow-up to your story -- 21 saying that we understand the 13 cubic feet of 22 documentation is currently identified as 23 PNL Series 016, and perhaps buried somewhere in that 24 13 cubic feet may be something you're looking for. 25 Just be patient. We've made this NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 request. We will attempt to follow up on it and try 2 to find out where it came from. 3 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: It's clearly 5 upsetting because obviously somebody already has it 6 at Hanford. 7 MR. THOMAS: Presumably, and it's 8 absolutely essential that anything you learn about 9 it be passed on to us because I think it's a crucial 10 piece of the story. 11 MS. DARCY THRALL: It's essential to me 12 to know what I drank, too, so that I know how to 13 follow up medically in my future and my daughter's 14 future, and it's very frustrating not being able to 15 have that. 16 MR. THOMAS: Well, this should be a 17 2-way street. Whatever we run on, we'll certainly -- 18 MS. DARCY THRALL: I should stress that -- 19 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's why, again, we 20 need you specifically to connect so that we can -- 21 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: The staff member that's the 23 coordinator of the operations is here at this 24 meeting, Mark Goodman at the back. I don't know if 25 you've connected yet. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MS. DARCY THRALL: No. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mark, maybe you could raise 3 your hand. Mark? 4 MS. DARCY THRALL: All right. I'll 5 speak to him. 6 MR. THOMAS: Just one other question. 7 Another aspect of your testimony at the San 8 Francisco meeting that particularly impressed us was 9 your courage in coming to speak to us in the face of 10 the intimidation which you have been subjected to. 11 I just wondered whether there's any been any 12 continuation of this. 13 MS. DARCY THRALL: No. The first time 14 was after this article in January was published that 15 I was harassed and my life was threatened and I had 16 an animal destroyed and phone calls till I had to go 17 to -- I finally had to take everything to the 18 police. As a matter of fact, I have not had any 19 such nonsense after that. 20 MR. THOMAS: We're relieved to hear that 21 because we certainly were concerned for your safety. 22 We're relieved to see you're alive and well. 23 MS. DARCY THRALL: I was very upset 24 until I got home and saw for myself that everything 25 was okay, and I hope when I return home, I find the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 same again. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Henry? 3 MR. ROYAL: I was going to ask you about 4 the retribution, also, in conjunction about the 5 comments of the Tri City Herald. I was wondering if 6 you could tell the committee about what the 7 atmosphere is like in the Tri Cities. When I hear 8 your testimony, it makes it sound like people who 9 are concerned about this problem are in the minority 10 and are being harassed; and I was wondering whether 11 or not you could shed some light on that. 12 What is it like to be living in the Tri 13 City areas? Do you find that people who are 14 concerned about this problem are somehow ostracized 15 throughout the community? What is it like? 16 MS. DARCY THRALL: Well, it's hard to 17 explain. For one thing, for me to find out 18 information, I tend to buy a Spokesman Review or a 19 Seattle Times to find out what's happening in my 20 hometown. It should be more publicized. I do feel 21 like it's -- when something comes up, it's like 22 briefly said once and then, "Okay. We've said it. 23 We don't have to say it more than once. We've done 24 our job now." 25 MR. ROYAL: I thought it was pretty NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 clear about the paper, but I was wondering about the 2 community itself, what the community reaction has 3 been. 4 MS. DARCY THRALL: Towards me, other 5 than the threats the first time, people who 6 personally know me are very proud of me; but I 7 haven't had other people come forward yet to say, 8 "Yes, the same thing happened to me. I remember 9 this. I did the same thing that Darcy did." I 10 haven't had that yet, but I have got some good leads 11 and I'm going to follow up immediately when I get 12 home. Most people are afraid to come forward. 13 They're very intimidated and they're afraid to. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Interesting. I want 15 to know -- There was something else in your 16 statement today that I think was new from San 17 Francisco, and that was there was a name of a 18 company that was identified as coming around and 19 doing some of the tests in the schools, although it 20 was not the -- the company did not do you. What was 21 that? 22 MS. DARCY THRALL: That was Battelle, 23 and they stated that I must have misunderstood or 24 not remembered properly because they only tested 25 from 1965 to 1968, I believe. It's in this article. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So that's what -- 2 MS. DARCY THRALL: But I didn't name 3 them as the people. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: No, no. My question 5 then becomes how did -- Did you mention to us in 6 San Francisco -- You didn't know in San Francisco 7 about Battelle, or did you? 8 MS. DARCY THRALL: I did know. This has 9 been since January. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is that a newspaper? 11 MS. DARCY THRALL: Yes. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. And so you 13 contacted them? 14 MS. DARCY THRALL: No, I didn't. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I see. 16 MS. DARCY THRALL: After I was at a 17 Downwinders meeting, hoping to run into other people 18 with the same story I had, there was two other 19 people there that drank liquid and recalled it. 20 Since then I believe one of them has died of cancer 21 and -- 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's what I'm lost 23 on. I'm lost on how you came to contact or even 24 know about Battelle, this company. 25 MS. DARCY THRALL: The company -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes. 2 MS. DARCY THRALL: -- how I knew about 3 that company? I'm sorry. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me see. I'm not 5 expressing my confusion well. Let me try again. 6 MS. DARCY THRALL: I'm not 7 understanding. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: You're saying to us 9 there was a company that did go around and do some 10 work -- 11 MS. DARCY THRALL: Um-hmm. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- with the children. 13 That company is called Battelle. 14 MS. DARCY THRALL: Um-hmm. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: How did you become 16 aware of this company, and, further, how did you 17 become aware you were not part of their work? 18 MS. DARCY THRALL: From this article in 19 the paper. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So by reading an 21 article in the paper -- Oh. Because you were not 22 during that time tested. 23 MS. DARCY THRALL: Right. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Thank you. 25 Appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming today. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. ROYAL: Could you leave us a copy of 2 that article or at least pass it along so that we 3 can -- 4 MS. DARCY THRALL: I'd be glad to have a 5 copy made of it. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yeah. Why don't 7 you -- Everything that you've done with us, you 8 really need to download into our staff. 9 MS. DARCY THRALL: Okay. And I'm going 10 to leave Thelma's testimony and this page from my 11 mother's diary. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Darcy, read a few 13 things from the diary. 14 (Discussion out of the hearing of 15 reporter.) 16 MR. TOM BAILIE: Tell them General 17 Electric has the papers. They've got to know where 18 to look. General Electric kept the experimentation 19 papers. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: What we'll do is, 21 again, if -- 22 Mark, are you going to -- 23 MS. DARCY THRALL: Can they check in 24 with General Electric to see if it's them that has 25 the documents? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mark, could you talk 2 to them, please? Would you have time? Not you, 3 Mark? Someone else who -- 4 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Lanny Keller. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Lanny. All right. 6 Can I get the right person? Lanny? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We'll get him. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 9 Darcy, would you please outside, and 10 they're going to be out there waiting for you with 11 the person for you to put all this information into 12 their hands. 13 And whatever you want, Tom, whatever 14 you're saying back and forth here, why don't you go 15 with her so that all this information can be gotten 16 to the person who is here? That's what they do 17 eight hours a day every day. They want to know. 18 Let's get it, so we can move on here. 19 MR. TOM BAILIE: Okay. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. You've 21 gone to a lot of trouble. We want to do this right. 22 Please, get it out to them. 23 MS. DARCY THRALL: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Ms. Lynne Stembridge? 25 MR. TOM BAILIE: Mr. Harder's here. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 2 Ms. Lynne Stembridge? Welcome, and how 3 are you doing? 4 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Where are you from? 6 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: I'm from Spokane. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, we know where 8 that is. 9 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: I'm an easy one 10 geographically. 11 I was present at your recent full 12 advisory committee meeting in San Francisco and 13 submitted a statement on behalf of the Hanford 14 Education Action League, of which I'm the director, 15 and I won't repeat that statement again for the 16 record. I have a comment that I hope may be helpful 17 in light of the questions that came up around 18 Darcy's and everybody's confusion about this form 19 and the dietary study of school children, and then I 20 also have a question -- a request of you all. 21 HEAL is on the DOE Media Advisory FAX 22 Generation list and so we get a lot of FAX's that 23 just -- we get puddles of FAX's in our office 24 actually; and we received a FAX recently that was a 25 Media Advisory regarding the dietary and school age NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 study information, and that press release said in 2 one line that there "had been radioactive substances 3 ingested by the school children," and it listed a 4 form for people who believed that they may have been 5 part of that experiment to fill out and send in to 6 the Department of Energy, and that they would then 7 make available to the person whatever records that 8 they had pertaining to them. 9 Then we received, several days later, 10 sort of a "red alert" correction FAX which said, "We 11 forgot to insert the word 'no' in front of 12 'substances were ingested;'" but this was, again, 13 the FAX form. And I'm sorry that I don't have -- 14 I've saved these two FAX's because we collect sort 15 of anecdotal information about DOE shooting 16 themselves in the foot, and this seemed to be yet 17 another example. 18 And there was a form that was contained 19 in that FAX and it was, at least here in Spokane in 20 the Spokesman Review, reprinted in the newspaper in 21 an article that Karen Dorn-Steele did with some 22 advance publicity about this committee meeting. So 23 there is some general confusion about the release of 24 this information and just what exactly it will 25 entail, but there was a form that was -- I think it NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 was a way more to manage information requests on the 2 part of the Department of Energy rather than trying 3 to force people to -- it was not an extensive form. 4 It was just a basic identifier for people who were 5 interested in information. 6 Then my request is that I'm aware of 7 this list of material that you all have requested 8 from the Department of Energy office in Richland, 9 and I would very much, if it's possible, would very 10 much appreciate receiving a list of that information 11 and also to be kept apprised of the information that 12 is given back to you in response to those requests. 13 HEAL is a watchdog organization. What 14 we do is keep track of information. Part of our 15 mission is to try and get to the truth of all of 16 this, and there may very well be some clues and 17 information that you all have been able to secure 18 that we perhaps have been looking for a very long 19 period of time. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: First of all, thank 21 you, and you know that the mutual interaction 22 between committee and advocacy organizations is 23 fundamental to our work. 24 I'm confused now, Stephen, on who is the 25 staff person that is staffing this activity for us NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 that she should be in touch with. 2 MR. KLAIDMAN: Which activity 3 specifically? 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: On our work on this 5 project, on this particular part of the work. 6 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: On the laundry 7 list. 8 MR. KLAIDMAN: Work relating to Hanford? 9 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: Yes. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes, correct, to 11 Hanford. 12 MR. KLAIDMAN: If it relates to 13 intentional releases, then Mark is the person. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Then Mark is the 15 person? And Mark stepped outside -- 16 MR. KLAIDMAN: No, Mark is here. 17 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: And I've had some 18 conversations with Mark. I just would like to have, 19 if it's possible, to have a copy of that. I presume 20 it was a written request to the Department of 21 Energy, and I would like a copy of that list. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Sure. Let me just 23 ask Steve if he has a copy of it. 24 MR. KLAIDMAN: Well, you can have that. 25 We have it here. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So you have it. 2 But certainly -- First of all, yes, you 3 can have the list of what we've asked for. Done. 4 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: All right. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: The larger issue is, 6 as information comes in, do we normally share that 7 through the conversations that people have with the 8 staff or not? 9 MR. KLAIDMAN: As information comes in, 10 it is presented by the staff to the committee, and 11 once it's been presented to the committee, we share 12 it. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So I think what it 14 says is that, yes, you will have a chance to hear 15 it. One of the best ways, though -- I just know the 16 ways these things work -- is to continue the 17 relationship with the staff person. That sort of 18 helps out. 19 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: I'll do that. 20 And, also, once we get the written list, we can make 21 our own request and get our very own copy. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Well, thank 23 you. 24 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: Um-hmm. 25 MR. THOMAS: Again, this is a 2-way NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 street, and you can help educate us as to what 2 requests we should be making if you're aware of 3 things that are not on this list that you think we 4 should have asked for. That way we may be more 5 effective at getting the documents you want than you 6 would be on your own. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Lynne, what I'm 8 trying to get at, I think we -- we're not trying to 9 be coy here. The bottom line is the committee 10 cannot function as a clearinghouse of information 11 for -- we just don't have enough people or time and 12 we're working -- obviously these people are working 13 their tails off. And so the point is that because 14 clearly you're representing a group of people and 15 you're helping us, and we're helping you, the way to 16 make this painless and simple is just stay in touch 17 with staff that are doing this work and I think 18 you'll get what you need. 19 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: Thank you. Well, 20 it will be very helpful to have that list. And if I 21 could also ask one more -- 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Sure. 23 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: This may be a 24 question too blunt for you all to answer, but do you 25 feel that you're getting cooperation from the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Richland field office? Are they being forthcoming 2 in sharing these records with you? 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Your question is very 4 specific about the regional field office, and to be 5 honest, I'd need to ask somebody else. I don't have 6 the answer. 7 MR. KLAIDMAN: I think we'll have a 8 better answer for you after tomorrow and in the next 9 couple of weeks. We have put in this request and we 10 have every reason to believe that we'll get a 11 positive response to the request. If we do, the 12 answer is "yes;" if we don't, we'll be back to you. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, let me just say 14 this, we'll not be back to you right away, 15 obviously. The answer is if we do not get 16 cooperation that's appropriate from the regional 17 field office, then the secretary of the Department 18 will immediately be made aware. I mean we're not 19 sitting here twiddling our thumbs and playing games, 20 and so we're not going to be -- I mean although you 21 could be very helpful, one of the areas you do not 22 have to be helpful to us in is if we're not getting 23 help from the regional field office, because we have 24 our own way of finding someone to help us. 25 MS. LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: I'm very glad to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 hear that. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let's see. 3 Mrs. Lois Camp? Lois, thank you again. 4 You've been very patient and we're wide awake. 5 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Thank you. Thank you, 6 folks, for coming to our neck of the woods. This is 7 wonderful to have a prestigious committee come right 8 to where we feel the action is. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thanks for saying 10 that. Makes us glad to hear that. 11 MRS. LOIS CAMP: I'm sure you're aware 12 of the moral outrage that many of our people are 13 experiencing. What probably isn't as visually 14 obvious is the supreme sacrifice some of them have 15 made to be here, both of energy, time and finances, 16 because of the financial destitution that many of 17 them are experiencing; and I feel that's always 18 important, to acknowledge their contribution. 19 I have so many things that I've added as 20 I've gone through the day here that I hope I can 21 keep up with all this. I dovetail in with what 22 Lynne just mentioned. It was one of my specific 23 questions in that I, too, would appreciate having 24 some kind of a memo or whatever that would let us 25 know what specific documents you've requested or NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 received; and I have one very specific question that 2 maybe could be answered today. 3 In the many document numbers and 4 abstracts which I provided -- I don't know what -- a 5 few months ago anyway, I wonder if you have received 6 the documents pertaining to the tracers that were 7 used in the releases, airborne releases and river 8 releases, from Hanford. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I don't know if we 10 know that. 11 MR. KLAIDMAN: I don't know. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Unfortunately, the 13 person that would know is -- 14 Oh, there are you are. 15 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Is that Mark? 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes. 17 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Oh, good. Now I know 18 who Mark is. All I need is his phone number and 19 then I can follow up on this. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. I'll tell you 21 what. Let's do that so that we can, in the interest 22 -- so that we don't -- He's right there and you can 23 see him as soon as you finish. 24 MRS. LOIS CAMP: I'll chat with him. 25 Thank you. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Another note that I think is important, 2 related to the document numbers and abstracts which 3 I provided, is that there's specific reference to 4 what they call, I think it's, Brown Bear Cruise. I 5 don't have the documents with me, but's it's 6 "something" Bear Cruises, which were done routinely 7 under contract from Hanford. They went from down 8 the Columbia River and up to the northern point of 9 Alaska where there were water, aquatic life, as well 10 as personal studies of Alaska residents. I think 11 this would tie in with Bev's earlier testimony that 12 would lead one to conclude that they were part of 13 the human experiments, too, because they were 14 studied and observed. 15 Now, moving on, one of our Downwinder 16 survivors is just simply too ill to be here. She 17 would have done anything in her power, but it's just 18 not possible. She authorized me to read brief 19 excerpts from a published article of when she was 20 interviewed. So if may read this? 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Please. 22 MRS. LOIS CAMP: This is Pat Hoover. 23 "I was in junior high about --" 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I'm sorry. How to 25 you do you spell the name? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Oh. Pat, P-A-T, 2 Hoover, H-O-O-V-E-R, and I will give this to Kris 3 when I'm finished. 4 Pat "was in junior high about 13 or 14 5 years old. We were usually checked during P.E. or 6 health classes. Men in white coats would come into 7 the class. We assumed that these were doctors. Now 8 looking back, I have no idea if they were doctors, 9 chemists or workers from the Hanford plant with no 10 medical background; but they came in looking like 11 doctors, stood behind us and felt our throats with 12 their hands." 13 The interviewer asked, "Did they tell 14 you why?" 15 "No. I can tell you another story to 16 demonstrate that Hanford was aware of the effects of 17 radiation. In junior high, all of us were becoming 18 conscious of our looks and began rolling our hair 19 with rollers, spraying our hair with hair spray, 20 wearing makeup, whatever. However, a lot of the 21 girls in our class had very odd fingernails. They 22 were deformed, very ridged horizontally. 23 "The girls with deformed fingernails 24 were instructed to go to the P.E. teacher to get a 25 chemical for their nails that would, quote, 'fix' NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 them." 2 I lost my place. 3 "This chemical was supplied by Battelle 4 Northwest, which is a private contractor with DOE, a 5 lab for Hanford. So even in the fifties, they knew 6 enough about what they were doing to us physically 7 that their lab was supplying chemicals to the public 8 school teachers for the students;" and at the time 9 that Pat experienced this, she was in junior high in 10 Hermiston, Oregon, which is across the river south, 11 and I don't know how many miles, probably 30 from 12 the Hanford site. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Would you 14 thank her for sharing that? 15 MRS. LOIS CAMP: I will do that, yes. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Again, obviously it's 17 important that we're really hearing so many of these 18 stories; and each time we hear them, it's important. 19 So you're going to sit down and have a conversation 20 with us? 21 Any other questions? 22 Thank you once again. 23 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Okay. I'm finished 24 with Pat. Can I start my time now? 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Yes, ma'am. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. ROYAL: I'll put this down. 2 MRS. LOIS CAMP: And I think that it 3 bears mentioning, before I get into the prepared 4 statement, two things. I think a lot of our 5 confusion and access to the information could have 6 been and could be eased if we were to have someone 7 like Tom Bailie who could represent our affected 8 population on the committee. This is a concern, and 9 it just would make easier access for all of us, and 10 I would appreciate your consideration of that. 11 Also, I had forgotten, until I heard 12 reviewed again today, that there was special 13 emphasis on the possibility that specific ethnic 14 groups might have been targeted. One of my dear 15 friends is an African American woman who has shared 16 with me that early on when Hanford was just being 17 established, there was a camp -- like camp-type 18 buildings, and her father and many, many other 19 people of their race were housed there in those 20 buildings. 21 I won't go into great detail, but her 22 health history is a horror story. Like most of the 23 Downwinders, the father and mother both died of 24 multiple cancers, multiple skin disorders and she's 25 ill, and so are her children, with birth defects, BD NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 kids in school, Behavior Deficient or Attention 2 Deficit children. I could go on and on. And I'm 3 going to encourage her to provide some kind of a 4 written testimony to provide you with. I apologize, 5 I completely forgot that part of her mission. 6 I'll just try to quickly go into my 7 formal statement. For each Downwinder experiment 8 survivor appearing today, there are thousands of 9 others unaware or unable to testify. They've all 10 been stripped naked of their constitutional rights 11 and live every day with the consequences of 12 radiation experiments which were used upon the 13 unsuspecting citizens who were the guinea pigs and 14 children, of course who were most vulnerable. 15 People were neither informed nor 16 provided protection. Follow-up studies or tests for 17 early detection of diseases were never offered. 18 Furthermore, in spite of a vast body of medical data 19 which confirms potential for cell damage, thus the 20 expected health effects, perpetuators of the 21 experiments deny to this day that there are any 22 health risks. 23 When a restaurant exposes patrons to 24 something such as salmonella, is that at-risk 25 population ignored while the scientists investigate NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 the case? We all know that that's not the case. 2 Great efforts are made to center on it, then find 3 the affected population, thus providing early 4 detection for the disease. 5 It is a complete reversal for the 6 Downwinders from 50 years ago, who have experienced 7 exposures of the same deadly, known contaminants -- 8 or are the most deadly, known contaminants on the 9 face of the earth, that continue to be ignored, 10 while being held hostage to million-dollar 11 scientifically-flawed studies of sick and dying 12 survivors, which are the living cell evidence of the 13 vast experiments, continue to be denied basic 14 humanitarian evaluation and health care. Excuse me. 15 I'm going to have to get a drink. 16 Like evil tentacles, the effect of those 17 early experiments are now affecting our third 18 generation children. That's probably one of the 19 most difficult aspects of this whole issue for me, 20 and I may have mentioned that in San Francisco. 21 Most of us can deal with our own physical 22 limitations, but when we look at the future for our 23 children and grandchildren, which I might say -- I 24 can share with the committee even Dr. Borakova 25 (phonetic) from the Soviet Union has done studies of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 the rats that were captured after the Chernobyl 2 accident, where they followed the rats out to the 3 18th generation, where they found that that 4 generation had a more -- excuse me -- a higher 5 susceptibility -- this isn't her exact quote -- but 6 a higher-than-expected susceptibility to cancer than 7 the first generation. 8 The horror of that and these abhorrent 9 realities must become critical factors when 10 considering the ethics of human radiation 11 experimentation. There has been no accountability, 12 a complete lack of corporate responsibility, no 13 ethical code or any sense of morality. 14 I had hoped to share a graph with you 15 that I had from the HEDR Report, and I left it in 16 the car, but I've done a rough graph because I think 17 it's so important to acknowledge. The HEDR Report 18 indicated that -- I think it was from the Green Run, 19 or maybe it was all the missions -- that 98 percent 20 of the emissions were light on 131 and only, 21 whatever, the 2 percent, or whatever, was the other 22 radionuclides. 23 Well, understanding the short half-life 24 of iodine 131, we can assume that at the end of one 25 year, after one specific release, that this graph is NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 reversed; so the radionuclides that are long-lived 2 become the 98 percent that we shall live with 3 forever. The iodine is -- has expended its energy 4 and is stable, but the other radionuclides, which 5 are every bit as deadly, will be with us forever; 6 and I think that's important to realize, the extent 7 of our concern over the time period of how long we 8 will be exposed to this stuff. 9 The suffering shall go on forever. How 10 do we address an atrocity of this magnitude? How do 11 we address remediation? I've been contacted from 12 somebody -- I don't think it's on your committee, 13 but part of the President's appointees or something. 14 Her name is -- oh dear -- Gail -- I thought she 15 said Janet -- Javot (phonetic). 16 MS. LEDERER: Gail Javot. 17 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Is that correct? 18 MS. LEDERER: Yes. 19 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Okay. I prepared just 20 a very brief preliminary suggestion for remediation, 21 which I'll provide to you, and I won't go into that 22 now other than to say I think our constitutional 23 rights must be restored to all the people affected. 24 Next and last, programs under the 25 direction of advisory boards consisting and chosen NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 by the affected community, then they might choose 2 their own experts, would be the only way that I can 3 consider that humanitarian health evaluation and 4 care would be provided, and this must begin 5 immediately. We shouldn't be expected to wait for 6 any more studies, any more epidemiological 7 considerations. We've waited 50 years. It's time 8 to start looking at the exposed and affected 9 survivors and catalogue the living cell evidence. 10 Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you once again. 12 Too, we do need to move on, but two quick points. 13 First, the representative of the African American 14 community that you mentioned, we would very much 15 like to get at that information and have the staff 16 have a chance to meet her. 17 MRS. LOIS CAMP: Um-hmm. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Secondly, on the 19 point on the addition to the committee, again, 20 that's not an issue that's under the control of this 21 committee. If it doesn't happen the way you want it 22 to, I hope you will not be disappointed in us. We 23 will continue to do our work the best we can, but 24 just know that it's not within -- you addressed it 25 to us and it's just not something that we can NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 respond to; and I just wanted to be honest in that, 2 and I don't want to see that become a burden in our 3 relationship. 4 MRS. LOIS CAMP: I understand that. 5 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 6 Really appreciate all your help in our continuing 7 collaboration. 8 Ms. Lynn Horn (phonetic) and Mr. Charles 9 Miller? 10 Mr. Miller? Oh, you want to make sure 11 you're in this shot. 12 Thank you both. 13 MS. LYNN HORN: Thank you. My name is 14 Lynn Horn, and I've lived my whole life in Spokane, 15 Washington; and up until probably nine months ago, I 16 didn't even know that I was amongst the Downwinders. 17 And when we first learned of some of these meetings 18 and we started going and started putting things 19 together, then I started remembering. 20 One of the first recollections I have is 21 back in the late forties or early fifties my mother 22 saying, when it snowed or it rained, she said, 23 "Somebody must be shooting off a bomb again because 24 my skin hurts." And we're, you know, 150, 200 some 25 miles from Hanford, but, you know, she'd say, "Well, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Russia's blowing another one off because my skin 2 hurts." Well, now my skin hurts. 3 My mother had cancer four times; the 4 first time when she was 42, and she died at 69. She 5 had chronic yeast that could never be taken care of. 6 These things have passed on in the family. My 7 brother was born in November of '49. The Green Run 8 was December of '49. He was born so ill that the 9 doctors said, "Can we keep him alive long enough," 10 because his tonsils and his respiratory is so bad," 11 until he can have them taken out?" He would have 12 had them taken out when he was 11 months old, and he 13 had 57 IV marks in his legs trying to keep him 14 alive. 15 My baby sister died at 13 months. She 16 had kidney failure and pneumonia and the doctor 17 stood there and said there was no reason why this 18 baby should have died. This was in 1951. 19 For myself, I have lots of respiratory 20 problems. I've had pneumonia ten to 12 times. I 21 had to start on thyroid when I was 11 years old. 22 Before kindergarten, I had rheumatic fever, gland 23 fever and Scarlet fever, and the temperatures were 24 so high that it ruined all the curl out of my hair. 25 I had bad nose bleeds when I was a child NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 before school, to the point of hours and hours and 2 hours of losing blood and not being able to stop it. 3 I have numerous, numerous allergies. I've had 4 chronic yeast for 25 years, and I have all kinds of 5 other immune system -- I had TB, I have rashes. 6 There's things wrong with my heart that shouldn't be 7 there. 8 I've had cancer, breast tumors, ovarian 9 tumors. I go out into the sun and my skin burns. 10 I've lost my hair, at least half of it. A little 11 ratting and hair spray makes it look better, but I 12 have it. Chronic fatigue. 13 And then there's my children who are 14 always sick, always had respiratory problems, always 15 had sore throats. My daughter is 27 years old. She 16 has had breast cancer already. She has enlarged 17 lymph nodes under her arms to the point where 18 sometimes she can't put them down, and she's had 19 lots of tumors. She has chronic fatigue. She has 20 horribly horrible periods. She just had to have an 21 abortion because there's so much scar tissue in her 22 uterus that she cannot carry a child to full term. 23 I have a son who's almost 20 who was 24 born with gills on his body that had to be operated 25 on. He has enlarged lymph nodes. He has chronic NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 fatigue to the point where -- He's a big strapping 2 boy and he can stay well about three days, and then 3 for four days he's down, and this has happened since 4 he's 13 years old. 5 These are my children. I lost a baby 6 girl because her lungs couldn't develop. And I 7 didn't even know until nine months ago that I was a 8 Downwinder or a victim, and my children are the 9 third generation and my children will not have 10 children. 11 I feel like the proverbial mushroom 12 that's been kept in the dark and fed bullshit, and 13 that's the way all of us Downwinders feel. We have 14 been sorely duped, we have been used and we have 15 been abused. We have had people stand and say how 16 many millions of dollars they're figuring out to how 17 much they've given us. We don't care. We just want 18 some help. We can't get medical. Try having 19 chronic fatigue and you can't work. Try having 20 somebody look at your children and say they're lazy 21 when they can't get out of bed. These things are 22 real. 23 We appreciate you coming, because it's a 24 loaded gun that's aimed at you because there's so 25 many hard feelings and there's so much anger. So we NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 do appreciate that, and you are our chance. We put 2 every bit of hope on you, and if you let us down, 3 there is no place else for us to go. And we're 4 dying. And this goes all the way to Canada, to 5 Montana, it goes all through the United States and 6 the Alaskas. It's everywhere. So you are our last 7 chance. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. CHARLES MILLER: Ladies and 10 gentlemen, what do we say after 50 years of lying 11 and deceit? Now you come after the TSP report was 12 brought out this year, and we find out that it was 13 skewed. The head of the TSP report is a Rear 14 Admiral in the Navy investigating Hanford, another 15 nuclear reservation. 16 We are to believe that you are going to 17 be truthful? Many of us don't believe in you. You 18 represent the government, who has attacked us. If 19 we thought the Soviet Union was going to attack 20 Fairchild or Hanford, we would have probably died. 21 Little did we know that the United States of America 22 would attack us with a 200-foot stack, intentionally 23 releasing radiation on this population and this 24 environment. 25 For your information, Coeur d'Alene is a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 jewel. It's a beautiful lake that's half dead from 2 pollution. This is one of the prettiest areas in 3 the United States, but a small population to induce 4 with radiation in a test. 5 Our hope is in you. But in truth, the 6 experience that we've had says that most of you are 7 probably going to receive grants from the 8 government. Is that true? Because most of the men 9 that have come and talked to us admit that they get 10 grants from the government, that they work for the 11 government. Therefore, can they be honest, you 12 know? 13 You should be an international tribunal 14 here just like in Nazi Germany. We should have on 15 trial the man who pulled the trigger on the Green 16 Run for, you see, there's two people that are not 17 here this year. Debbie Nesbit (phonetic) who spent 18 two years in Connell as a child with my ex-wife, who 19 I have three children by. Now, Connell is 30 miles 20 north of Hanford, gentlemen, ma'am. What does that 21 mean to my children? What does that mean? 22 In our valley, we've had seven deaths from 23 various types of diseases. We are the first 24 mountains north of Hanford. It goes right down 25 through Idaho. You have the information now to try NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 them and you know you do. Don't give us any more 2 shit. You have the Air Force information when they 3 tested that Green Run. They flew all over, they 4 sent men out. You have that. We don't. What are 5 you asking us for? Do your job, please. 6 I started a house -- I build houses -- 7 this spring for a man. His wife was born 8 December 7th, 1949, in Moses Lake. She died this 9 spring of a massive tumor. Most of the people that 10 have come and talked to us have said it's impossible 11 she could have been bothered by the radiation, "It's 12 a low dose." Come on. The wind blows here and 13 everywhere in the west, northwest area. Please, 14 we're not stupid. 15 We are the equivalent to being downwind 16 of Chernobyl. That is a fact. There's some 17 estimates that say we are at least half of the 18 Chernobyl release. Remember we're over a long 19 period of time, so maybe we're worse. We have an 20 emergency here. People are dying. People are sick. 21 And you are charged to protect us. 22 I really hope that you make a 23 difference, that you're not going to be another 24 John Till. It's your reputation, it's your honor. 25 And you ask what it's going to take to restore the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 reputation of the United States government, who 2 attacked this area with a bomb? 3 There's no other way of looking at it. 4 How could they release the Green Run? We're not 5 talking about prisoners. We're talking about 6 babies, unborn babies, and maybe my son will marry 7 your daughter. Think about it. It can never happen 8 again. And you are the only ones. I can't change 9 it, she can't change it. Think about your charge 10 here. 11 I know you must be tired of hearing all 12 these people whine and cry, but think about the 13 rights of the Constitution that we all have. Just 14 because we're a small group of people in this area, 15 it's happening a million times; but there was a few 16 strong men and women who can change it, and you are 17 in those shoes. So I beg you to take it serious. 18 We were violated. There's no question about it. If 19 they did it once, they did it more than that, and 20 you know it. They just admitted to once. 21 So, please, listen to us. They need to 22 be put on trial -- there's no way it can be done any 23 other way -- the men who pushed the buttons and gave 24 the okay. I don't care if it's the President of the 25 United States. How could he do that? Think about NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 it, because it's your children and children's 2 children that are going to be affected. Don't have 3 your name on the list of those who aided in the 4 cover-up 'cause Mr. John Till is on that list now. 5 He's a criminal because a criminal act was committed 6 upon the people here. Don't be a criminal, please. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Thank you 8 very much. 9 (Applause from the audience.) 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Charles Lombard? 11 Good afternoon. 12 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: Good afternoon, 13 gentlemen, ladies. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Were you with us 15 earlier, Mr. Lombard? 16 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: Yes, and I had to 17 leave. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: That's all right. I 19 didn't know if you knew about our little blue signs, 20 our 4 minutes and so forth. I just wanted to make 21 sure you were comfortable. I didn't recognize your 22 face. Go ahead. 23 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: I'll try to make 24 this as fast as possible. In the late forties and 25 early fifties, a lot of my work was in the Pasco and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Hanford area. I was in the automotive management 2 business with a little Ford dealer here in Spokane, 3 and we used to travel the Tri City area by 4 automobiles. And later on, the local auto auction 5 moved to Pasco, Bob Burger Auto Auction (phonetic). 6 And at times we were told not to drink 7 the water out of the taps, to drink the water only 8 out of the bottles, but we'd already been drinking 9 for I don't know how many years. Plus, the local 10 restaurants didn't serve water because of that, 11 unless you asked for it. Then they would serve it 12 to you out of the bottles, the large 5-gallon 13 containers. 14 During that time, they mentioned the 15 word "cancer," but I don't think too many people 16 knew or even thought anything of the word, plus the 17 word "radiation." I came down with -- And at times 18 we went to Ritzville and straight south. I don't 19 know if anybody can remember when the Pacific 20 Natural Gas line went in, and they were saying there 21 was something in the dirt, there was some kind of 22 chemical in the dirt, and some of them had red 23 handkerchiefs across their face and others would 24 just tolerate it. 25 During the time of the late forties and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 early fifties, I changed my -- I developed a skin 2 condition where I could hardly shave. I had to 3 shave mildly with an electric razor and a dry 4 powder. I had all my treatments with a skin 5 specialist, and the major contact was with the Mayo 6 Clinic as to what they could do to help; and they 7 used an acid and electric sparks to burn this 8 irritating condition from my face. It was seven 9 years, and I paid for that myself. 10 Later on -- I had been sick all the 11 years there and sometimes I was very ill, especially 12 through my respiratory system. Then finally it 13 seemed to have caught up with me and I had a 14 terrible throat condition. After several doctors, 15 five different clinics, they removed the lymph nodes 16 from my throat and administered radiation treatments 17 at the University of Utah, and I was given a 18 possible three to five months left to live. 19 My family wanted to move back here 20 because we were from here, so we moved back here. 21 After we moved back here, why, I started having a 22 rough condition again. I left the family here and 23 went back to the veterans hospital in Salt Lake and 24 to the University Hospital in Salt Lake, and they 25 took quite an interest in what was going on; and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 they did a biopsy and found tumors and cancer in the 2 thyroid, larynx and the base of my tongue. So they 3 figured that, through the guidance of the Mayo 4 Clinic, they would try these different treatments; 5 and they gave me 10 days at the most to live. 6 They -- I had a lot of radiation and 7 laser radiation for 30 days, and then I went in for 8 a radiation implant, where they put the radiation 9 seed directly into the tumor through my tongue; and 10 they put five of them into the tumors to burn it 11 from the inside out. 12 I watched my heart stop on the heart 13 monitor and -- they moved it up after I'd been there 14 six hours on the table, and I realized that monitor 15 was me. There was no one else there it was attached 16 to, and when it stopped, I knew that the only way I 17 was going to -- how I was going to stay alive, I 18 knew I needed a miracle. 19 The doctor pronounced me dead, and the 20 nurse and the other doctor says, "We lost him." And 21 just then I made a challenge to God and he -- God 22 came by the table, the operating table, and my heart 23 started in again. So they went ahead and finished 24 the operation, and at 8:00 later that night I went 25 up into the intensive care. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 All in all, I had a total of 17 doctors; 2 and through the hospitals in the Salt Lake area, 3 some of the younger doctors had mentioned that 4 somehow I had been exposed somewhere along the line 5 to iodized (sic) radiation. I don't smoke, don't 6 drink, do drugs. I never have. I still have these 7 problems. It's destroyed my life. I've lost 8 everything, including my wife. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, thank you very 10 much. Is there anything in particular -- First of 11 all, thank you for sharing your experiences. Any 12 particular direction or issue you'd like us as a 13 committee to focus on -- 14 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- just in one quick 16 moment? 17 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: We must realize 18 there's millions and millions being spent on the 19 clean-up of Hanford, and there seems to be a lot of 20 interest to do that; hundreds and millions and 21 several millions and more billions coming. Where 22 does a human life come in? They're down there 23 treating dirt. Aren't we a little bit more 24 important than dirt? 25 I spent three years in the Pacific on NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 seven different ships. I never complained. I went 2 through it. I carry two purple hearts and I wear a 3 brace for the rest of my life, and there is no 4 complaint there. Is there some way that we can be a 5 priority -- 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 7 MR. CHARLES LOMBARD: -- in 8 compensation? 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. Thank you 10 very much for coming down. 11 Let me alert the committee and the 12 audience. We have four people that I have on my 13 list. We've got next Curt Lesley (phonetic) and 14 then Rett Carter and then Wendall Ogg -- am I saying 15 Ogg right? -- and then Mr. David Vanderbilt 16 (phonetic). These are the people that I am aware of 17 that are in cue. 18 To my committee, would you like to 19 proceed right on now or do you want to take a 20 2-second stretch break? 21 MR. THOMAS: I'd like to go out and get 22 some coffee. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We're just going to 24 let our colleague, who is here on a couple hours 25 sleep, get some coffee, so he can pay just attention NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 to everybody. 2 Take your time. 3 (Brief recess taken.) 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mr. Curt Lesley? 5 Mr. Curt Lesley, thank you for joining us. 6 MR. CURT LESLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 Members of the committee, fellow 8 citizens, I'll try to keep my presentation fairly 9 short as I have somewhat of a different twist on 10 this that may be of interest. Most of the comments 11 today focus on the people in the area of the Inland 12 Pacific Northwest as being subject to experiments. 13 I don't share that conclusion. 14 Dr. John Till, who's been mentioned 15 earlier, may or may not be part of the other side, 16 whatever that is, but in his own way he revealed a 17 great deal of what happened in this area. I 18 questioned him earlier this year on who had been 19 subject to the most radiation, the people in 20 southern Utah or the people in the Inland Pacific 21 Northwest. He indicated to me that it was the 22 people in the Inland Pacific Northwest. 23 Well, the published amounts of 24 radiation, 557 curies from 1944 to 1945 and the 25 subsequent releases, as logged by the technical NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 steering panel, do not agree with his statement when 2 you realize that St. George, Utah, was subject to 3 multiple fallouts of fission material spanning the 4 spectrum of the Periodic Table of the Elements. 5 So then I began to pursue another source 6 for both the amount and the epidemiological results 7 on the population who are my neighbors and friends 8 and some of them relatives. A possible source for 9 that is a Chernobyl-style disaster. 10 The graphite piles, 40 by 40 by 40, are 11 the precursors of the N-type reactor and the 12 Chernobyl reactor. If one of those reactors were to 13 be lost, the operators were to lose control of it 14 and it were to melt down, then you would have the 15 release of the entire field of that reactor, which 16 is about 10 tons of fissile material, under either 17 an explosive or the very high heat of an atomic 18 meltdown or just an ordinary carbon fire. Those are 19 your potentials. In order, they would be a steam 20 explosion or a subsequent fire or then a meltdown. 21 Interestingly enough, when I started 22 down this road, people began to furnish me with 23 documentation, either to put me off the track, where 24 there's another avenue, in other words, to prevent 25 access to the population, or to confirm my layman's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 suspicions. There's a document number, Hanford 2 Works 44580, which is dated 7/56. A quote from that 3 is, "...new roof installed on the 105 D Building," 4 which is actually the D reactor, "The roof blew off 5 in December of 1955, and since that time difficulty 6 was encountered with water on top of the reactor 7 pile when it rained." 8 The "Note" to that Works is, "By this 9 time both B and D reactors had," quote, "'lost their 10 roofs,'" end quote, "at least once. These roofs 11 were constructed of massive concrete blocks," for 12 gamma shielding. They were removable only by 13 cranes. "It would appear that this phenomena would 14 occur possibly from loss of control of the reactor 15 cooling capability." 16 Hanford Works 20677, which is oddly 17 dated 4-6-52. If you catch the significance in the 18 numbers, you have a 40,000 series document which is 19 dated in '55; you have a 20,000 zero number which is 20 dated in '52. There's something wrong there. But 21 they asked for the funds to put in what they called 22 the Ball X -- 3X Facilities for the B, D, DR, F and 23 H piles, which were to prevent explosions. By that 24 time they had also flooded the cores with helium to 25 keep the deformation down to a minimum. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 If you had an explosion at D reactor of 2 any severity on or about March 12th, 1945, which 3 released all or part of the 10 tons of the field to 4 the environment and to the people living in the 5 environment, that is the explanation of what 6 happened to these people and not the Green Runs. 7 The Green Runs become, just as 8 advertised, a way to calibrate instruments. The 9 reasoning behind that, although it is repugnant, it 10 is reality. When they calibrated their instruments 11 with the Green Run, they could come back through and 12 plant sugar beets to pick up the radio elements from 13 the soil, and that sugar would have been run back 14 through the plants as part of the denitration 15 process. 16 So, ladies and gentlemen of the panel, 17 if there is a big lie buried in our history, for 18 obvious national security reasons, it's your job to 19 ask the President to cancel Executive Order 12356, 20 which was signed by Ronald Reagan in 1982, which, 21 upon his signature, they took vast quantities of 22 documents out of that period and stuffed them away 23 from human sight, both in Bellevue and in D.C., and 24 then started this huge chase down the road of human 25 experiments and this, that and the other thing. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 You've probably noticed the anger in 2 this room. It's one thing to pay taxes to put 3 together a defense establishment. It's another 4 thing to be injured by that defense establishment. 5 It is a third thing to be lied to and then spied on 6 as a result of going after what is a person's 7 constitutional rights. 8 You need to very clearly understand 9 that, and every citizen in this room including you, 10 anything you can buy out of the front of your phone 11 book can be done to you without your knowledge. 12 That's call blocking, that's call forwarding, that's 13 third-party calling, that's everything. And I can 14 tell you very clearly that as a citizen, when I 15 started down the road to the D reactor on March 12, 16 1945, my life has changed adversely. If I want to 17 talk to people, I have to go do it in person. If I 18 want to mail letters, I have to do it from someplace 19 other than the Pasco mailing facilities. 20 So in addition to Executive Order 12356, 21 this committee needs to go to Bill Clinton and say, 22 "I want you to get the old 'loose lips sink ships' 23 executive orders off the books. I want the covert 24 operation dismantled. This is my country. My 25 friends and my neighbors will take it back with or NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 without your help." 2 Because none of the documents mean 3 anything to me. I can go to the local feed store, I 4 can buy a soil probe, I can go to the local hi-tech 5 shop and buy a geiger counter, and I can trace 6 plutonium 239 for the next 24,000 years out across 7 the Inland Pacific Northwest, if indeed there was a 8 fire in a reactor, and there's nothing any of you 9 can do about it. You can run whatever cover-up you 10 want or you can stop the cover-up. One way or 11 another, the people that comprise the Downwinders 12 will piece together what has happened to us. 13 Thank you very much. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much, 15 and thank you for sharing. Any specific questions? 16 Okay. Thank you. 17 Rex Carter? 18 MR. TOM BAILIE: Mr. Harder's asked me 19 to set with him. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I'm sorry. Let me 21 make sure that I get your name. I called you 22 Carter, and it's Harder. 23 MR. REX HARDER: Yes, my name's Rex Harder. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Would you spell that 25 for us? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. REX HARDER: H-A-R-D-E-R. 2 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: H-A-R-D -- 3 MR. REX HARDER: D. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKER: -- D-E-R. Harder. 5 MR. REX HARDER: Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 7 MR. TOM BAILIE: I'm going to preface 8 Mr. Harder's remarks, if I may. Mr. Harder and I 9 are in partnership on cattle operations. As a 10 child, I talked about the deformed sheep, and my 11 first science project was a deformed Shetland pony 12 colt; but I had never ever encountered the high 13 level of crooked calves, deformed calves my entire 14 life as what I encountered when Mr. Harder's cattle 15 started coming down from the Sprague Lake area to my 16 farms to winter. 17 I would just like Mr. Harder -- if you 18 would, Rex -- to explain what happened in the early 19 sixties when they really started showing up, what 20 they looked like, and has there ever been any 21 weather balloons on your ranch or military 22 helicopters. Maybe you could tell the story about 23 the deformed calves. 24 MR. REX HARDER: Okay. I can keep these 25 comments fairly brief. We run cattle on the area NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 from the town of Sprague down generally southwest to 2 the little community of Benge; and in the early 3 sixties, or mid-sixties, when I was finishing high 4 school and starting college, we had quite a lot of 5 calves being born with bowed backs and the front 6 legs were bowed. They would curl up. Some of them 7 could walk, some of them couldn't. 8 It seemed to be a problem that was quite 9 concentrated in our area, to the best of my 10 knowledge. Initially, they thought the concern was 11 the lupine wheat that grew out there. WSU did some 12 tests on that and, to the best of my knowledge, they 13 came back inconclusive and did not -- they could not 14 recreate the crooked calves in the laboratory 15 experiment. 16 There were also some deformed or 17 mutilated animals occurring in the area in the late 18 sixties and early seventies. I saw one myself. I 19 don't exactly recall which year it was, but it was 20 in the summer. It probably was in the late sixties. 21 We also had some other people around there, who are 22 deceased now, who observed helicopters picking up 23 one of their animals -- 24 MR. TOM BAILIE: That came -- 25 MR. HARDER: -- a helicopter picking up NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 an animal. And that, of course, seemed odd to me, 2 and I never really thought much more of it; but 3 that's basically what -- you know, we don't know 4 what the answer was that caused those calves to be 5 born crooked. 6 MR. TOM BAILIE: Weather balloons 7 landing in your yard? 8 MR. HARDER: Occasionally, yeah, there 9 were weather balloons. 10 MR. TOM BAILIE: One of the reasons I 11 brought this to the committee's attention is on 12 Tab H, Part 1-A on your Green Run Case Study 13 Memorandum, it states, "Intentional releases may 14 harm human health, but they also may harm 15 livestock." 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much 17 for coming. Let me just ask you a quick question. 18 Again, I'm a city kid from back East, so I know 19 nothing about -- It would seem to me that, given 20 that livestock are extremely important to the 21 livelihood for people out here in these parts, that 22 the veterinarian services are fairly well developed 23 and that there is a community of veterinarians, I 24 imagine, that take care of -- help you, assist you 25 all in taking care of these animals. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 If that is true, would you happen to be 2 aware if in the veterinarian community there was 3 much talk about these deformities in the animals and 4 whether or not they were alerting -- or whether that 5 became part of the conversation in the people that 6 are in the industry that you're in? 7 MR. HARDER: Well, yes, it was; and 8 Washington State University is the home of a very 9 good veterinarian school for the region, and that's 10 why they participated in -- they conducted, I would 11 say, the studies trying to ascertain, you know, why 12 it was happening. And, again, to the best of my 13 knowledge, they could not recreate that deformity in 14 Pullman with the feed that they thought was a 15 problem. And after that, I went off in the Army and 16 other things, and I'm not sure what happened after 17 that. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 19 Henry? 20 MR. TOM BAILIE: They presented an 21 inconclusive opinion about that. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. Henry? 23 MR. ROYAL: Was that opinion in writing? 24 Was that opinion in writing? Is there a formal 25 report that exists? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. HARDER: I don't believe so. Again, 2 like I said, I went off in the Army. I could 3 certainly look and see if I can locate that. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: You say there was a 5 department of veterinary medicine? 6 MR. HARDER: Veterinary medicine at WSU, 7 Washington -- 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Washington State 9 University. 10 MR. HARDER: -- State University. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Maybe we could look 12 into it and see what they've got on file. 13 MR. ROYAL: Do you know if at that time 14 there was any concern that the abnormalities that 15 were seen in the cattle were related to radiation 16 and whether or not any tests were done specifically 17 to look to see whether or not the animals were 18 contaminated with some radioactive material? 19 MR. HARDER: Not to my knowledge. The 20 radiation was not really an issue. It mostly 21 centered on feed. However, about the same time, we 22 had inquiry from the Air Force about an unusual 23 magnetic disturbance in one of the areas. It was 24 just such a case where their low-flying planes' 25 magnetic compasses would deviate very bad, and that NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 was one of the areas where we were having these 2 crooked calves. 3 Then again, after the Air Force took 4 that test, I wrote them a letter or two, you know, 5 some years later asking them for the results of what 6 they found there and why, and those requests weren't 7 answered. 8 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I think you've given 9 us a good reinforcement to go ahead and contact the 10 University veterinarian department and just see. I 11 think that's very helpful to us. 12 MR. HARDER: Okay. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I'm glad you took the 14 trouble. Thank you very much. 15 MR. HARDER: Thank you. 16 MR. TOM BAILIE: Mr. Chairman, the 17 number out of that one particular area was -- 18 -- about 200 cows and 80 calves 19 deformed? Was it that high? (speaking to Mr. Harder) 20 MR. HARDER: Well, on some occasions, 21 there were truckloads of them. I don't recall the 22 numbers back then, but they -- 23 MR. TOM BAILIE: How this affects you, 24 Mr. Chairman -- 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, I think it's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 pretty obvious. Let me -- 2 MR. TOM BAILIE: -- they went into 3 McDonald's burgers. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me just make sure 5 that it was your cattle, his experience, that led to 6 some looking into this by the veterinarian 7 department. 8 MR. HARDER: It was ours and -- 9 MR. TOM BAILIE: Everybody. 10 MR. HARDER: -- and some of our family 11 members. It was a group of ranchers through the 12 county cattlemen's association that they worked on 13 it. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Great. Thank you. 15 MR. TOM BAILIE: And the answer was, 16 "It's the lupine that does it," and the question we 17 didn't ask is, "What's in the lupine?" 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: "What's in the 19 lupine?" Got you. Wonder how I knew that was the 20 question. 21 MR. HARDER: Thank you very much. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for taking 23 the trouble. 24 Wendall Ogg? Am I saying your name 25 properly, sir? NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. WENDALL OGG: The Scots pronounce it 2 "Ogg," so that's okay with me, Ogg. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Ogg, O-G-G. 4 MR. WENDALL OGG: I was interested in 5 what Mr. Lesley said about the roof because I've 6 been amazed for the last hour, how in the world 7 could this roof be what it is; and then I happened 8 to be -- How many years ago was it? 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: You need to be very 10 disciplined about the microphone, sir. 11 MR. WENDALL OGG: I happened to be the 12 counterpart in Oak Ridge for your shipment of those 13 slugs from Hanford. That's when I first started at 14 Oak Ridge, was whenever they were doing the Hanford 15 runs and the weapons testing. It was a very 16 paramount part of the weapons testing. It was top 17 secret. And those cell blocks, they weren't roofs, 18 they were big pieces of concrete, exactly the size 19 of that (demonstrating) but about five times 20 thicker; and do you believe what a big crane it took 21 to lift the roof off to do slugs and put in slugs? 22 That building where I worked is where we 23 received the Hanford slugs, and we used Hanford 24 slugs instead of X-10 slugs. The first reactor 25 built -- the second reactor built in the world, and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 the first one built by ADC. We used the Hanford 2 slugs because they had more stuff in them, they were 3 larger; and we used those slugs to make the barium, 4 lanthanum and tracers for the weapons testing. 5 MR. ROYAL: Do I understand what you're 6 saying is that a possible explanation for why the 7 roof needed to be -- 8 MR. WENDALL OGG: -- heavy, was a 9 shielding; it was shielding. 10 MR. ROYAL: Were you suggesting that the 11 reason it needed to be replaced was because in order 12 to get the slugs out of the reactor they had to 13 remove part of the roof? 14 MR. WENDALL OGG: I'm sure that's the 15 case. 16 MR. ROYAL: Then that would damage the 17 roof in some way? 18 MR. WENDALL OGG: No. The roof -- You 19 can go to Oak Ridge right now and see those 20 buildings aren't used anymore, that 706-D Building 21 where I worked and where the slugs were dissolved; 22 but that cell is still there and the cell 23 communicates with the top, and the gigantic crane 24 lifts that top off whenever you have to do repairs. 25 And, boy, that was the most important thing that we NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 had in approximately 1940 -- well, '45 through '50, 2 and I happened to be there. 3 I want to talk about my work and 4 Dr. Karl Morgan. I certainly have a great 5 admiration for what he's done because he was the 6 pioneer in my field, which is called health physics. 7 And the reason this is health physics is because in 8 Chicago, the first pile that was built in Chicago, 9 they had two sets of physicists. One was a regular 10 physicist who split the atom, and the others were 11 the health physicists who took care of radiation, as 12 I did when I became a health physicist. 13 In other words, it's our job to care for 14 contamination, it's our job to make sure that the 15 dosimeters perform; and I religiously have worn this 16 thing (demonstrating) ever since I worked, since 17 1949, for AEC/DOE, and they know my dose down to a 18 plus or minus 10 percent; and don't let anybody tell you 19 that they don't know our dose in the AEC. Whenever 20 the AEC split, you know, became the Department of 21 Energy and became -- 22 MR. ROYAL: NRC perhaps? 23 MR. WENDALL OGG: -- NRC, I worked for 24 NRC for several years in the Chicago area; and the 25 power plants were the most beautiful machine in the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 world as far as I'm concerned. They're just 2 beautiful. And the radiation they put out is 3 approximately one millirem per year, whereas Mother 4 Nature, good old Mother bless-her-heart Nature, 5 gives us 300 millirems per year. But the power 6 plants give one, and, also, most releases from our 7 nuclear facilities, DOE facilities, that are 8 released to the nearest person in Oak Ridge is 9 approximately three-tenths of one millirem per year. 10 That's not enough dose to hurt anybody. 11 Let's see. I started here. Well, I 12 hope I can advertise the field of health physics 13 because your children -- there's a lot of colleges 14 and universities now that are giving a graduate 15 degree even in health physics. 16 Okay. Here I'm ready to go. I became a 17 medical physicist on the suggestion of Dr. Karl Morgan 18 when I was working at Oak Ridge. He encouraged some 19 of us to go into medical physics. Why? We were 20 health physicists or radiation physicists -- 21 radiation technologists, actually -- and the point 22 was that about 30 years ago, guess who was giving 23 the people the most unnecessary radiation? Can you 24 guess? 25 It was the medical doctors, and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Dr. Morgan "sicced" us, as we say in Tennessee, 2 after the medical doctors of that time because they 3 were giving much, much more radiation than needed; 4 and they didn't have the proper energy for, as most 5 of you know, for reducing the dose, etc. 6 So I went to -- I left Oak Ridge and 7 went to Harvard. They didn't study me. I worked 8 with them as a medical physicist, and it was 9 certainly a fantastic experience. And guess what I 10 found during my first month at Harvard Medical 11 School? And this is in Boston, not in Cambridge. 12 At Harvard Medical School, I found a duct, leading 13 from some of the work that they had done to separate 14 the daughters of radium, highly contaminated. 15 When you're a health physicist and you 16 discover radium, you're scared. So we taped that 17 thing up as best we could. We didn't let one atom 18 leak out of those old ducts that they had used there 19 at Harvard Medical School, and got them shipped off. 20 But that's what I say, health physics is the name of 21 the profession that has to do with people who care 22 for the conditions of the workers. 23 Bear with me just a minute. Okay. The 24 radiation we're talking about, ladies and gentlemen 25 -- maybe everybody's gone that didn't know this -- NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 is ionizing radiation. You know, whenever the atom 2 has its electron knocked off of it, it becomes 3 charged, so to speak; and it's those charged atoms 4 in the food we eat or the air we breathe or the 5 water we drink that works on our bodies and causes 6 -- can 'cause danger and sickness and so forth. 7 But, evidently, we've had this ionizing 8 radiation since the beginning of earth time, and 9 that's when -- and so, yes, in the 1960's and '66, 10 we had the reorganization of the Atomic Energy 11 Commission -- well, recently the reorganization of 12 the Atomic Energy Commission to the Department of 13 Energy and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has 14 taken care of and improved the nuclear regulation. 15 It's "nuclear." Don't let people say 16 "nuke-u-ler," but "nuclear." If you can say 17 "unclear," you can say "nuclear." Nuclear 18 radiation. The name of the people are called health 19 physicists. 20 As I said, it was my job in those years 21 at Hanford, in those weapon-testing years, I was a 22 member of a team who, after the shot -- I'm talking 23 about the weapons that were detonated in the Nevada 24 test site -- it was my job to jump in the truck, 25 drive 90 miles an hour straight towards Ground Zero. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 We didn't go to Ground Zero, we went 1,000 yards 2 from Ground Zero where Dr. John (unintelligible) 3 columnators, which are the dose measurers, are 4 placed; and we were fully dressed and we would go in 5 there, dash in there as fast as we could, reach into 6 the big canisters and pull out the sample and take 7 it back so that we could give the dose; and it had 8 to do with the Japanese bomb to measure the dose to 9 the people. Unfortunately, the Japanese attacked us 10 at Pearl Harbor, but they paid for it dearly. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Mr. Ogg, the time is 12 up, and I just wonder if you might want to just give 13 us your closing two sentences so that you really 14 focus the committee on what you want us to take home 15 from your presentation. I think we've got it. 16 MR. WENDALL OGG: Okay. Very, very 17 good. Thank you very much. Does anybody know 18 Dr. John R. Cameron from the University of Wisconsin? 19 Dr. Cameron is an eminent physicist known all over 20 the world. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is this the point you 22 want us to take home? 23 MR. WENDALL OGG: Yes, I want you to 24 take that home. It's the most important point. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 MR. WENDALL OGG: The group at the -- 2 medical physicist group at the University of 3 Wisconsin have taken the data from the shipyard -- 4 from the approximately 30,000 shipyard workers in 5 Virginia, about half of whom worked with radiation 6 and about half of whom did not work with radiation, 7 and Dr. John Cameron and his associate, a Japanese 8 guy named Sohio Kondo (phonetic), have written -- 9 guess what? -- that low-level radiation is, one, 10 apparently harmless and that low-level radiation is 11 probably, Dr. John Cameron says, beneficial to the 12 human body. 13 That's what he teaches and he's got -- 14 he used the United States data of 30,000 shipyard 15 workers; and talk about epidemiology, that's 16 probably the best greatest piece of epidemiology 17 that's ever been done -- 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 19 MR. WENDALL OGG: -- to prove that 20 low-level radiation is harmless and is probably 21 beneficial. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you for 23 spending the time and talking with us. 24 And now we are happy to hear from 25 Mr. David Vanderbilt. David Vanderbilt, where are NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 you? 2 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I'm glad you are. 3 I've been kind of dreading this. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: I'm sorry. Again, we 5 took our break, and we have you and one other, so 6 you can be very comfortable. 7 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I thought this 8 was the last. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: No, there's one 10 behind you. 11 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: Damn it. Well, 12 we were close. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: But I tell you the 14 thing that's good about it is that you've got our 15 full attention and we'll give you everything we 16 have. 17 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: Well, I promise -- 18 I promise, gentlemen and ladies, I will not use all 19 my time. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: All right. Well -- 21 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I've regrouped. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: It's your decision. 23 We're happy to listen to you. 24 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I understand. I 25 just needed to, please, get a little bit on the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 record, and I don't even need to read it. It's just 2 -- it's rhetoric. It's a little bit of my military 3 stuff; Korean period, Desert Rock, real drill. One 4 of them that I'm sharing, I'm sure you've seen it 5 before; but I can buy off of this guy's statement, 6 he was there a year or two before me. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: We're not sure what 8 that is. Why don't you tell us? 9 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: Well, you'll get 10 it. 11 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 12 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: One of your gals 13 was kind enough to copy this stuff. All it is is 14 "Shielded from Liability" and blah, blah, blah, and 15 it's kind of a story of a Private, an 18-year-old 16 kid. You know, all of us were what I called 17 pimple-faced kids. We didn't know, and we all went 18 through the same damn thing. That 1,000-yard line 19 was kind of a popular place. 20 My record shows about 90,000 of us went 21 through that facility, but I'll tell you, that one 22 ditch that I was in wouldn't hold that many, not at 23 one time. I was in the "Plumb Bob" (phonetic) crap, 24 and specifically Smokey's the one I remember. 25 And I am literally getting the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 runaround, and I hope this is the end of it, because 2 I know you've listened to the horror stories all day 3 long, and I did yesterday, also, and my heart goes 4 out to them. I've been trying to hide and be 5 ignored and be literally, excuse me, chicken shit 6 for damn near 40 years. I hadn't known, but I 7 didn't want to hear this stuff. 8 I'm sorry (crying). 9 But I'm going to the V.A. finally, with 10 the prompting of my kids, and they want to know the 11 genetic effects possibly; and I'm getting kind of 12 stonewalled because -- are you ready for this? -- 13 they're sending me letters back and saying, "Sorry, 14 pal. Your records don't exist. There was a fire in 15 1973." So I guess because the records don't exist, 16 I don't either. Is that an easy way to wash the -- 17 I'm only going by a doctrine that says I'm a vet, 18 and I ought to be able to get there and get handled, 19 and I'm hardly getting through the front door. 20 All I wanted to ask the committee is to 21 look at this stuff, pass it on; and I understand 22 you've got 40, 50 staff members. Please, please, 23 could you ask whoever is comfortable with the Plumb 24 Bob series to give me any data that you can share 25 with me? Specifically, and most particularly, note NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 for the record that I was attached to a foreign 2 military group, hell of a bunch of guys (crying), 3 Second Battalion, Queen's Own Rifles, Calgary, 4 Alberta. 5 I don't know how big they were, but you 6 can find their records at Curry Barracks (phonetic). 7 It's still there. And I don't care if our 8 government kept records or not, after reading some 9 of the data I got from you guys today, but I'll 10 assure you they're pretty good at keeping records, 11 so they might be able to help you in your 12 evaluations of what did happen. 13 I guess that's about it. I've got some 14 notes down here that are kind of cute, but I don't 15 know if it's fair. Somebody was talking about -- 16 oh, I read a little report in here about some 17 General was suggesting that "maybe we don't keep 18 very articulate records because a group may get 19 together later and come try and haunt us." 20 "Litigation." 21 Well, for the months I was down in that 22 desert, I never saw any generals. The officers we 23 had got off miles back behind us, they got off the 24 trucks and the jeeps and they went down in the 25 concrete bunkers. The rest of us got trucked out in NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 these cattle cars and unloaded in the desert and 2 told, "That's your ditch, boy. Go hunt a hole." 3 And the top three graders climbed in the trucks and 4 took them all back off the site out of harm's way, 5 and left us sitting there kind of watching the 6 exercise, "Watch the pretty white light." 7 I think somebody had an idea that it 8 might have been -- might come haunt us later. 9 Anyway -- 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 11 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: -- if that makes 12 any sense. Like I say, I didn't want to snivel and 13 cry. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: No. Listen -- 15 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I wanted to leave 16 you happy at the end of a long day. 17 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Listen, it's hard to 18 talk about this, and I appreciate you doing that. 19 Steve, we think we do have some stuff on 20 Plumb Bob? 21 MR. KLAIDMAN: Yeah, we have some 22 material on Plumb Bob, and if we can get your 23 address we'll send it off to you. 24 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: So we need to just 25 get your address, so check with the folks in the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 back. 2 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: I gave it to them 3 bright and early this morning. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Good. We will 5 hopefully be able to be of some help to you. Thank 6 you. 7 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: Leonard was the 8 one instrumental in getting me here. He called me 9 from Seattle and said, "We're having a get 10 together," and he knows I've got some real war 11 stories to tell; but you don't need to hear any more 12 of those. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 14 MR. DAVID VANDERBILT: You've heard 15 them. God bless. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you, sir. 17 Now, if we could have finally -- oh, 18 yes -- Iris Hedman. Iris, you're in the best 19 position of all because you absolutely have all of 20 our energy. 21 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much 23 for coming. 24 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: I am Iris Hedman, and 25 I live in Othello, which is about two hours from NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 here, between here and Hanford; and I want to thank 2 you for coming. I wish had known. Karen Dorn-Steele 3 called me to tell me that you were coming. If I had 4 known a few days earlier, I think I would have a 5 little bit more information for you. 6 I am from a farm family. We came, my 7 husband and I came, to the Columbia Basin in 1952; 8 and from 1954 until 1975, we lived in the Ringold 9 area, across the river from the 300 area -- 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Okay. 11 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: -- about two miles 12 from the Columbia River. My six children, who now 13 range in age from 31 to 41, attended a grade school 14 in that area known as Edwin Markham (phonetic). It 15 was K through 6. 16 Now, I do not have the dates or which of 17 my children were tested, but I can tell you with all 18 certainty that Battelle conducted a whole body count 19 in that school; and I'm not sure how many of my 20 children were tested, nor what all went on. I do 21 know that I filled out a lot of papers regarding 22 their diet and that sort of thing; and some of the 23 children I know in other families got a little 24 certificate saying that they had completed this 25 whole body count. There was a large mobile facility NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 that was pulled up in the school and left there for 2 probably a week or something like that -- maybe 3 longer -- and I know it said "Battelle" on it. 4 Now, I have asked at many meetings that 5 I have attended, I have asked for the results of 6 that testing that was done on those children, and 7 Battelle officials have denied that they did it. 8 That is simply not true. 9 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Are you finished? I 10 mean, yes, we certainly want to ask you some 11 questions. I don't want to interrupt you, but go 12 ahead and finish up. 13 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Okay. Well, I have a 14 couple of other things to say. I can attest to the 15 fact of a Mr. Harold Clinesmith (phonetic) who also 16 had calves with crooked legs such as Mr. Harder 17 mentioned. He lives at Benge, which is a downwind 18 community. 19 Also, I am aware that there were lab 20 experiments done on animals at Hanford. I'm not 21 sure whether WSU was involved, but I kind of thought 22 they were, and neighbors of ours, who sold hay and 23 straw and so forth, told of some very strange 24 mutations over there. 25 The children that were tested here, this NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 was a very stable community. Those children went 2 through 12 years of school together. They didn't 3 move around. They were healthy children, their diet 4 was good. It seems to me that this would be a good 5 focus group for you to know if there really was 6 damage or not. This was not a transient community. 7 It would be easy to find almost all of those 8 children yet or, you know, young adults yet; and I 9 believe this is one focus group that you should look 10 at; and, strangely, I don't think one has been 11 tested so far. That is the substance of what I have 12 to say. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much 14 for coming. Let me -- Given that there was a -- 15 there was a community of people, the children were 16 going to school with other children -- 17 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Um-hmm. 18 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- the mothers would 19 see each other at the bake sale or the grocery store -- 20 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Absolutely. We were a 21 very close community. 22 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- was any of this 23 filling out forms or giving permission for companies 24 to come and examine their children, or the issues 25 we're hearing about so much, of a great incidence of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 thyroid dysfunction, were any of these issues part 2 of the casual conversation of the day? 3 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Not at that time. I 4 don't think that we really knew that there was such 5 a thing as irradiation damage -- danger in the 6 community, and I don't think it was taken seriously. 7 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: But that's -- 8 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: And then later on, in 9 1986 I attended a meeting in Richland when this 10 first wave of information came out, and I was 11 amazed; I was amazed at the denial that was 12 evidenced by the people who are employed at Hanford. 13 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: One of the -- again, 14 one of the hard things that we're trying to get a 15 sense of, which your testimony's very helpful for 16 doing, is this notion of -- I mean if you fill out 17 this form -- 18 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: You know, my memory is 19 really kind of blank. 20 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Sure. But what you 21 don't remember is anybody telling you what you were 22 filling out, what the purpose of the form was. 23 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: No, and neither were 24 there any results ever given to us. 25 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Now, a mobile van NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 pulling up in front of the school -- 2 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: And, again, we're 4 trying -- one of the tasks, important tasks that 5 we're trying to do is to try to put ourselves back 6 in a particular time and try to understand what the 7 mindset was like; and so your answers to this, even 8 with your foggy memory, are very helpful. 9 If a mobile van comes up in front of the 10 school and they do things with the children, in 11 today's climate, that might generate some questions. 12 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Um-hmm. We were much 13 more trusting in that era. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is that what it was? 15 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Oh, yes. It was a 16 neighborhood school and we had no crime in the 17 neighborhood. I think there was only one divorce in 18 that school at that time. It was kind of idyllic, 19 you know, so we didn't know enough to mistrust. 20 I will tell you that in 1954 I was down 21 at the river and on one side of the fence there were 22 fruit orchards, and on the other side of this fence 23 there was a bunch of cherry trees and cattle 24 grazing. There was a little makeshift kind of a 25 barbed-wire fence and on the top of that fence it NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 said, "Closed - AEC;" and I crawled under the wire 2 and I went and picked cherries and gave them to my 3 children. 4 And later on -- I didn't know the people 5 who had lived down there at that time -- later on 6 Mrs. Webber told me that the AEC had moved them from 7 the river, from that orchard, which was closed, up 8 on top of the hill because there had been a load of 9 radioactive fruit. Now, the only difference between 10 the fruit on one side and the fruit on the other was 11 a three-wire barbed-wire fence. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Is -- 13 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: We had no -- I had no 14 reason to believe the fruit, though, was radioactive 15 at the time I picked it. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Well, thank you. We 17 know how to reach you. I'm trying to think -- 18 Thank you for spending the time. Oh, by the way, 19 did you ever -- one of the things we've been trying 20 to understand, some folks have a recollection of 21 some of the kids wearing dog tags. 22 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: No. 23 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Was that any part of 24 your memory? 25 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: No. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thanks for taking the 2 trouble. We really appreciate it. 3 MS. IRIS HEDMAN: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Let me say to the 5 audience and those who have stayed through all of 6 this, first, let me just express our extreme 7 appreciation for your contributions to this. 8 For those of you who have indicated or 9 reminded us of the moral and ethical obligation that 10 we have to do our jobs well, please know that you 11 certainly have done a good job of reminding us of 12 that. I would hope that we didn't need that 13 reminder, that we come to this out of a certain 14 sense of our own individual principles and ethics, 15 but being human beings there's no question that we 16 couldn't help but be affected by you. 17 We will obviously do a lot of work with 18 this. Staff certainly has a lot of homework that 19 they will have to do and that you have added 20 significantly to the process. I do sincerely hope 21 when the final report is done and the work is done 22 and you look at it, I sincerely hope that you see 23 your work reflected in it. I'm going to do 24 everything in my power, and I know my colleagues 25 will, to make sure of that. NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 Thank for your trouble, and godspeed. 2 Oh, okay. I need the official 3 government person to officially close this. 4 MR. GARCIA: As the designated federal 5 official, I hereby adjourn this meeting. 6 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Even though we've 7 officially had it closed, please, would you like to 8 make a comment? 9 MS. DARCY THRALL: We would like to 10 stand and have a moment of silence for the moment of 11 victims who are no longer with us. 12 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Excuse me one second. 13 Jerry, would you do me a favor? This is 14 so -- this is such an important opportunity that -- 15 MS. DARCY THRALL: It's very important. 16 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: -- I would like this 17 to be a formal part of this meeting. Would you 18 reopen us, please? 19 MR. GARCIA: As a designated federal 20 official, I hereby call this meeting to order. 21 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 22 MS. DARCY THRALL: It is very important 23 for us, and we would like very much to take a moment 24 of silence and stand up and think about and remember 25 the victims that are no longer with us, the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433 1 survivors who are still here fighting and trying to 2 learn, and for all of the future generations that 3 will have to survive, if they possibly can. 4 Thank you very much. 5 (Audience standing for a moment of 6 silence to honor those mentioned.) 7 MS. DARCY THRALL: Thank you. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you very 9 much. 10 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you very much. 11 Jerry? 12 MR. GARCIA: I hereby adjourn this 13 meeting. 14 CHAIRMAN TUCKSON: Thank you. 15 (Meeting adjourned at approximately 16 6:15 p.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. (202) 234-4433